All Topics / Legal & Accounting / Father is dying. Please help with advice.

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  • Profile photo of JustAllanJustAllan
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    @justallan
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 168

    I’m facing one of the darkest times of my life and need some advice.

    First, apologies for not thanking those who replied to my other post some days ago… I may get back to that later.

    Second, apologies for the length of this. Rather than try to edit it, I’ll just type and hope folks will read – I do appreciate those who read it and comment.

    My father has gone from ill (but still up & walking around), to dying of cancer in a drug-induced sleep that he probably won’t wake from, as they are not feeding him anything.

    He is in his second marriage, and they own a house worth about $200,000. He also has about $80,000 left over from the sale of his previous property – and a superannuation fund of an unknown amount.

    I am the only child. Second wife has a son, who has caused nothing but trouble for them their entire married life. She always forgives him instantly, dad keeps right on hating him. [axe]

    Although Dad brought it up many times over the last few years, he is the world’s greatest procrastinator and didn’t have a will. But a few weeks ago, he told us he had finally bought one of those do-it-yourself will kits and filled it in. He said originally he wanted to make it so the second wife could live in the house until she died – and also get about a third of the cash side of his estate. The other two thirds would go to us. Later, when she dies, the house was to pass back to us. (Again, he said he wanted it done this way because Dad hates her son so much, he doesn’t want him to receive a thing of what he worked for all these years.)

    But Dad said he couldn’t do it this way now and that he regretted ever putting her name on the property deed when he had sold my childhood home. (Because he realised that because he did this, it meant she would automatically inherit the house in full when he died – and so it would eventually go to her son.) He was totally disgusted in himself over this mistake and said because of this, he had now left everything apart from the house (superannuation, savings, etc.) to my wife, children and I.

    A couple of weeks went by and then my entire family caught a virus. He wanted to see us over those two weeks, and we said we’d be there as soon as we were able. (We were concerned if he caught it, it would finish him off.) Then he went into hospital. The medical staff – and other “family” – knew we were sick and were trying to get there.

    Monday, his brother (who hates me for some reason, even though he’s not spoken three words to me for the last 20 years, when I was a teenager) arranged for a solicitor and they withdrew medication temporarily to prepare a new will.

    (This brother originally confirmed to my wife on the phone that yes, there was a will, but later he changed his story telling us there was not one a will after all and so they needed to make a new one.)

    Later that day we went to the hospital with the kids to see dad and found him asleep. We were told by those already there, “We are all waiting for him to wake up.” So we waited – all day – until someone said, “Oh, are you waiting for him to wake up? But he probably *won’t* wake up now because of the medication.”

    I didn’t know the medication was keeping him asleep, so I explained to the nurse he had wanted to see us and his grandkids – and how was that going to happen now? She said he was on the medication because he was hallucinating and a danger to himself and others, throwing himself around trying to get out of the hospital. I said to the nurse, if he was capable of filling out legal paperwork earlier that day, then how could that be the case? And if they knew he was going to be put back onto medication, why didn’t someone call us and we would have come in after the signing of the will?

    She got the strangest look on her face and said she would get the doctor to come talk to me about it.

    The doctor came – along with a social worker (I think she was) – and I repeated the same thing to them both as in the paragraph above. They both looked at each other with a very concerned look on their faces and I asked them… “What’s with that look you both gave each other a moment ago?” They said they were not even aware a will had been prepared. They also said medication was not withdrawn at any time. The doctor then carefully began to read the notes left by medical staff from before and after that time. While he discussed these with us, I also mentioned to the doctor that dad’s brother had rang my mother (dad’s first wife) to find out how to spell my name correctly – because the solicitor couldn’t understand dad’s speech when he spelled it out.

    The doctor read out some of the notes. They showed that before AND after Monday morning – that dad had been hallucinating, thrashing around trying to get out of bed.

    Originally I was simply asking the doctor if dad would wake up, and should we remove the sedatives so he could talk to the grandkids for the last time, or is it just too late and would be too painful… But I soon realised what he and the social worker were getting at…

    They were telling me my dad was in no capable mental state to be signing legal documents. They also said this should have been obvious to the solicitor who should not have gone ahead with it.

    Incredulous, I asked them if they were telling me that if the will turned out to be unfairly skewed, would this all mean I have a legal recourse. They emphatically said, “Oh, yes – definitely – he was not in his right mind and so in no fit state to sign a legal document. You’ll be able to request the medical notes and a letter of doctor’s professional opinion.”

    Once they left me, they must’ve had a discussion with other staff, as the nurse caught me in the hall. She whispered to me that she could get in trouble for telling me this, but she was the one caring for dad that morning – that she had put him on the toilet because he had asked her to – didn’t go to the toilet – and wasn’t even aware of where he was!

    So… I didn’t want to even think about this right now, but there it is.

    What I desperately need help with is… If the will is severely biased against us – does anyone know where I begin?

    What I mean is, do I need a solicitor? Or should I wait until the will is read, or do they expect you to accept a will and sign something on the spot? Do you need to sign *anything* at the reading of a will!? If I don’t accept it is there some kind of legal time limit – some way I can prevent them from hiding the lot away, while I arrange to contest it? And if I need a solicitor/lawyer/court case, how am I ever going to afford it if we lose?

    My goodness, where on earth do I begin.

    You see, I’ve had chronic fatigue syndrome for several years and have not been able to work and provide for my family as I so desperately would have liked to. I missed the real estate boom while I struggled to save a deposit, read Steve’s materials, devour information on this site and scour internet sites looking for real estate. I’ve watched the deals disappear over the last few years – always being two steps ahead of where I was.

    Now all this has happened and may lose my inheritance as well and I just feel like I’ve failed my family all over again for the umpteeneth time. My wife & kids are asleep in bed and here I sit having thoughts of suicide if it turns out the way it seems it’s going to. Oh, I’ve got brains enough to not do it of course, but still – the thoughts are there.

    I always knew she would get the house, but the lot… I don’t know if I could cope.

    Probably shared a bit too much there. [blush2] Anyway… Thanks for reading, and thank you for any replies…

    Allan.

    Profile photo of gatsbygatsby
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    @gatsby
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    Post Count: 708

    Hi Allan,
    my sympathies and prayers go out to you with the enormous pain and stress you must be going through now. I don’t know what to say in regards to any legal advice but can only empathise with you in your pain. Three weeks ago I lost my brother in law who was like my own brother. He was financially very successful and took his own life. This caused a lot of anger, guilt and loss to a lot of his family and friends (ie he lost probably over $100,000 to people who bled him dry up until he suicided and then they literally left him for dead). I realise this isn’t exactly the same as what you are going through and possibly not what you want to hear at this point in time. All I can say is that I pray for you to find the strength for what you are going through to know you are not alone, no matter how hard things may seem.
    Kind regards,
    Gatsby.

    “Sometimes the hardest thing to do in life is often the best thing to do.”

    Profile photo of Endless SummerEndless Summer
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    @endless-summer
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 62

    Allan,
    If you are in Victoria, the Law Institute Vctoria (phone 9607 9461) can give you a list of local member accredited specialists.

    http://www.liv.asn.au

    They offer the first 30 minutes free with up to 3 local lawyers. If you go see 3 local lawyers for 30 minutes each then that would be a really good starting point. If you choose to use one after the first 30 minutes will be up to you. They are expected to provide some advise in those first 30 minutes – not just talk about themselves. And the good ones will because they want to keep you as a client.

    You have to take the liv referal letter with you (available on the web or by phoning) when you go to the appointment.

    If you are not in Vic then your state law institute may have something similar. Or try Legal Aid. Either way, the more people you speak to the better you will know which direction to take.

    If these people have been trying to keep your inheritance (and it sounds like they are) then they will be prepared already and probably have been for a while. So you might need all your strength to fight this. Make sure all your conversations, if you have any conversations at all with relevant parties, are in writing so as to be provable and be selective in what you say.

    I think if you want to present any evidence in court you will need to make sure it is provable – in writing and not disputable.

    Ring around lots and lots of help lines. Spend the next couple of days on the phone with lots of people so as to get as much relevant information as possible and then take it from there. (Mens referal service 1800 065 973 Legal Aid 1800 677 402) Keep asking these people who else you can talk to and keep asking questions.

    Try and trip up the other side to somehow admit part of their wrong doing. Lots of these small admitances over time in writing build your case and assist to settle prior to court. You might need a friend with a devious mind for this.

    Make peace with your father so as to make peace with yourself.

    The wife and her son will never be happy – that seems obvious to me – so fight for your entitlements and then let it go which ever way it goes.

    Your family will also be fine which ever way it goes. They and you may become stronger for it – you never know.

    All the best.

    Profile photo of WylieWylie
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    Hi,

    So sorry for what you are going through.

    Please get in writing whatever you can from the staff who have confided in you that your dad was not in a fit state to sign a will. If you don’t get anything now, they may forget the details or worse, be pursuaded (or not allowed – privacy laws are very strange) to give you any copies at a later date.

    I know how this can rip families apart. It happened when my husband’s father died. Just days before he died, one daughter tried to have him change his will. He didn’t, and wasn’t capable of doing so anyway. One week after he died, we had a will reading. He had left rather an ambiguous will and no doubt, had his own reasons, but I have never seen such disgusting behaviour on behalf of three of his four daughters and I am glad I was at the will reading to see the true nature of his “loving” daughters.

    Stay strong.

    Regards, Wylie

    Profile photo of Mortgage HunterMortgage Hunter
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    Post Count: 3,781

    Allan,

    There are two issues here and you should seperate them in your mind at this stage.

    The real tragedy and the one you need to focus on is your father’s death. This is a time for grieving and spending time with the family.

    The will is an administrative issue that can be dealt with a little later on. I have no experience in this matters (thankfully so far) but I imagine I would wait to see what it actually contains. In this low time you might be imagining far worse than is the case.

    After the will is read there will be time to contest it. You need to contact a solicitor and give him the medical documents available. There are solicitors in our local paper who advertise their speciality is will contesting.

    If the will is voided then you might well find that your entitlement might be quite small. After all your father does have a surviving spouse and I believe that their claim is quite strong.

    I know you are feeling very low at the moment. I think you should discuss this with your GP who has a number of tools available to help you through a difficult time. This will allow you to think straight and also be stronger for your family and any potential legal fight.

    Should the suicidal feeling become stronger then I suggest you take yourself along to the hospital. They have a team available to help you through these feelings and you would be surprised what a difference it makes. You need to think of your family first at those times.

    I wish you all the best and will be thinking of you.

    Kindest regards,

    Simon

    Profile photo of CoopsTCoopsT
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    Hi Allan

    Again deepest sympathies with your situation, I can’t relate personally to what you are going through but I can tell you that in my line of work I see a lot of people who are going through the worst periods of their lives and one of the greatest rewards of my job is seeing them in a years time when they have kicked on and are able to look back at what they have achieved with pride….I am sure you will stay strong during this time now and come out on top.

    I am not a lawyer but do work with law/evidence daily and I agree with the previous post about getting as much evidence as you can. Try and get the Dr’s and nurses’ names, times you spoke to them, copies of any documents that suggest your dad wasnt very well when he signed all the forms. Details such as names/opinions of staff etc will only become harder to get as the days go by.

    If you are in SA our equivalent legal help number is the Legal Services Commission on 1300 366 424 (mon-fri)…similar to above posts they will give free over the phone advice for 15mins approximately and if they can’t help you then they will definately point you in the right direction.

    Best of luck with it all mate

    Cheers

    Coops

    Profile photo of Mortgage HunterMortgage Hunter
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    Allan is in NSW – anyone have a help number here?

    Simon Macks
    Finance Broker
    [email protected]
    0425 228 985

    Comments may not be relevant to individual circumstances. If you intend making any investment, financial or taxation decision you should consult a professional adviser.

    Profile photo of HotRodHotRod
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    My sympathies also.

    Being a very emotive time I would caution against doing anything too brash. Make sure of all your facts and gets details aviable from the hospital and people’s names.

    Having no will drawn up the distributuion of the estate would probably be according to what is set out in law. With the will drawn up well, that dictates what goes where.

    The question reamins I guess if your father was fit to sign the thing. That’s where the details will come in use when you contest (IF you want to as you might receive more under the “will” than set out in statute).

    Now changing tack a little. It always amazes me when people die the descendants always think they have something due to them. That’s where the ugliness of people get drawn out. Just be mindful that contending a will would put you in the same boat as the people who might have had input to it or manipulated the deceased.

    Personally, I would rather take the view that I will never inherit any money. That way if something bad does happen to a relative that I could get an inheritance from then I’m not put out should I get nothing.

    I would rather live with a clear conscience and not be drawn into the gutter at a level of money grubbing grave diggers. Apologies if this offends. I would rather stand the moral high ground and meet my maker (and relative) one day on good terms as an eternity is a looooong time.

    Later…………

    All things are possible to the person who believes they are possible.
    Whateve the mind of man can conceive and believe, the mind can achieve.
    Napoleon Hill

    Profile photo of JustAllanJustAllan
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    @justallan
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    Originally posted by Wylie:

    Please get in writing whatever you can from the staff who have confided in you that your dad was not in a fit state to sign a will. If you don’t get anything now, they may forget the details or worse, be pursuaded (or not allowed – privacy laws are very strange) to give you any copies at a later date.

    The staff have said they do not take sides unless legally directed to by a judge, etc. But copies of the medical file can be subpoenaed since he was admitted though. (Everything that happens to a dying patient gets written down. Includine their reaction, what family were told…)

    Allan.

    Profile photo of JustAllanJustAllan
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    Originally posted by Mortgage Hunter:

    The will is an administrative issue that can be dealt with a little later on. I have no experience in this matters (thankfully so far) but I imagine I would wait to see what it actually contains. In this low time you might be imagining far worse than is the case.

    Well, today it’s even worse than I’d hoped. Dad’s sister comes in and says, “No-one’s trying to do the wrong thing by you…” then a few minutes later, says that they got dad to sign everything to the wife. (How this is not doing the wrong thing by me & my family, confounds me.) She then said, they don’t even know if it will be legal (because of the state he was in).

    For those reading… Yes, that’s right – another of MY relatives, trying to prevent me from receiving anything my father wanted – and want the second wife and backstabbing son to get the lot – house, plus a couple of hundred thousand – while my family struggle along in a housing commission property.

    If the will is voided then you might well find that your entitlement might be quite small. After all your father does have a surviving spouse and I believe that their claim is quite strong.

    I have a Paul Clithereo book that says:

    “If you die without a valid will and there is a spouse and children… If the estate is worth less than $150,000 (including the matrimonial home), the entire estate goes to the spouse. If the estate is worth more than $150,000 the spouse gets the first $150,000 plus all household effects, and the remainder of the estate is split equally between the spouse and children.”

    That would have been preferrable to getting nothing at all (thanks to my relatives who think they’ve done me some kind of wonderful favour).

    Allan.

    Profile photo of JustAllanJustAllan
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    Originally posted by HotRod:

    Now changing tack a little. It always amazes me when people die the descendants always think they have something due to them.

    I guess my problem is, the relatives thought I would take everything from the wife – which of course as the Paul Clitheroe statement above shows, I simply could not have done anyway. I didn’t mention before, but the wife also received a compensation payout some years ago when she was burned by the hotwater system in her housing commission property. She still has most of this money. Since then, she has had her money – and dad has had his separate – unless of course she wanted a new lounge, bed, carpet, car… That then came out of *his* money.

    So she not only still has her payout money, but now is going to get the house and all of dad’s estate as well. Even the car he told everyone he wanted me to have, the day I took him to buy it a few weeks ago!

    If my so-called relatives had not “helped” me (how they can think it’s help!?) and had just left dad intestate (without a will), 50% of everything over $150,000 would have gone to helping my family. She would have still had the house, just a little less spare cash. I don’t think that’s at all unfair for an only son to expect – especially when dad always said he wanted to give HALF the house AND half the money, which would have been much more than that 25%.

    25% is nearly nothing to her – but it was the beginning of a future to me. But they’ve tried to take away even that pitance. (She didn’t arrange this remember – MY relatives did.)

    Personally, I would rather take the view that I will never inherit any money. That way if something bad does happen to a relative that I could get an inheritance from then I’m not put out should I get nothing.

    That’s a great view to take – and I always adhered to it myself, until 10 years on I found myself still incapcitated. I was relying on SOMETHING to help us at least buy our own cheap home and stop being a burden on the Australian tax payer (we rent a housing commission property).

    I’m not offended by what you said either…

    I would have been content with a fair settlement. But I just can’t believe they could do the dirty like this – to their own relative! Where were they when brains were handed out!?

    Once the will is read and this all is finally confirmed, I’m going to ask a judge, etc. to grant that minimum 25% that was due if dad had died intestate.

    Then, if legal advice believes we have a strong chance of success – I’ll also go after the two witnesses on the will (the relatives that arranged for the solicitor) for fraud – plus the solicitor himself, since he did not obtain any confirmation from the doctors that dad was lucid enough to do so, when it was obvious he wasn’t and it was his legal duty to do so.

    Once that’s done, I may then also think about pursuing compensation for the suffering, anguish and possible relapse of my chronic fatigue all this could have caused.

    Not for revenge – but to just stand up for a change for what is right – lest they – and he – try this on someone else one day.

    Thank you to all who replied – I’ll keep you informed. Please don’t stop the comments either, if you have something to say…

    Also, if anyone knows a solictor/lawyer (not sure which I’ll need) in the Newcastle area, that will fight hard for a moral victory – please let me know.

    Allan.

    Profile photo of foundationfoundation
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    @foundation
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    Once the will is read and this all is finally confirmed, I’m going to ask a judge, etc. to grant that minimum 25% that was due if dad had died intestate.

    Then, if legal advice believes we have a strong chance of success – I’ll also go after the two witnesses on the will (the relatives that arranged for the solicitor) for fraud – plus the solicitor himself, since he did not obtain any confirmation from the doctors that dad was lucid enough to do so, when it was obvious he wasn’t and it was his legal duty to do so.

    Once that’s done, I may then also think about pursuing compensation for the suffering, anguish and possible relapse of my chronic fatigue all this could have caused.

    This speaks volumes…
    I’m sorry for your loss. The loss of your father that is.
    Regards, F.[cowboy2]

    Profile photo of JustAllanJustAllan
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    @justallan
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    Originally posted by foundation:

    This speaks volumes…
    I’m sorry for your loss. The loss of your father that is.
    Regards, F.[cowboy2]

    I’m not quite sure if you’re saying I’m being petty – but if the shoe was on your foot I don’t think you’d be so anecdotal. For instance…

    We’ve now found out that dad DID have a will after all – a do-it-yourself type that he did a few weeks ago. They didn’t like what was in it, so they’ve drawn up another one, had him sign it in a state of confusion and most likely destroyed the first one.

    To put it in terms all us here can understand… If you bought a property and the vendor changed – indeed REVERSED – the terms of the contract in order to rip you off, would you simply say, “Oh that’s ok – I’ll let you defraud me.” I hardly think so.

    It turns out that the will he did have, made myself & my wife/kids the main beneficiaries. The wife was to live in the house until she died, then it was to pass to us. Dad’s brothers and sisters are trying to make it so that we get NOTHING. Totally against his wishes. Totally behind the back of the medical staff. Totally against the law.

    Criminals should not be left in peace to commit crimes.

    Allan.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Allan

    I think you should probably fight for your fair share of things, but that will come later.

    My parents were divorced when I was young. My dad married another divorcese with 3 children,set up a new home etc, and then he was killed in a accident (nearly 20 years ago). Before he died they talked about this topic and it was decided that if either died, the house etc would go to the other spouse and then when the other spouse died all would be equally divided between her children (3) and his (2).

    His will left everything to her. She also received an insurance payout of a couple of hundered thousand. The house was almost paid off at the time of death, so she bought a new car and went on a new holiday, then found a new boyfriend. She eventually signed over half the house to him, and then they sold it a few years later – possibly to avoid any being left to me and my brother.

    The trouble was there was no written agreement to backup there verbal agreement about the remaining spouse leaving everything to the children equally.

    My suggestion would be to wait until your father dies. It would not be nice to be generationg these thoughts while he is still lying there. Wait to see what is in the will and then to seek legal advice. You should gather eidence – witness names etc and this will would probably be able to be over turned.

    But that would probably mean most would go to his surviving wife. you may be able to put in a claim and get something.

    Terryw
    Discover Home Loans
    North Sydney
    [email protected]

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of BonbeachBonbeach
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    Allan,

    Very sorry to hear you are in this situation im sure our thoughts are all with you. I hope it all works out for you. What goes around comes around, and if these people do end up getting away with this they will get it back on them some day…

    Any notes you can take down with dates and times of conversations, names, events etc are very important and I would definately seek legal advice, but dont let all this get you down at the moment. As people have said, you dont know whats in the will just yet. Wait and see, dont stress about it too much. (If you can try)

    When you know, then you can deal with it as it happens.

    Try and stay positive, and think that as bad as things get, there are people still worse off than you. Keep smiling and stay in touch with us here on the forums and let us know how things are going…

    All the best mate

    Dev* [kid]

    Profile photo of Robbie BRobbie B
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    I am not a solicitor but I am amazed that your concerns were financial when visiting your dying father. If the will is challenged and you win (very likely), his current wife will get most of it anyway as I am assuming all children are now mature age.

    In my opinion, the current home will not be taken away from the current wife so I would forget about that. The 80k might be split between the ‘blood’ children and current wife. At best, you are looking at 40k in my opinion. If you are suicidal over 40k, I think you have bigger problems to worry about than challenging a will.

    Forget the solicitor and see a psychiatrist first.

    TMA


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    Profile photo of rosenburg50rosenburg50
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    Allan my sympathies with your fathers illness but it does sound like you are transferring any possible grief into the quest for your fathers money. spend what time you can with your father, even drugged he will know you are there. I lost both my parents within months and I would gladly give any inheritence back in return for one more day with them. Seek counselling or even family mediation, life is too short enjoy every minute you have with you family.

    Profile photo of JustAllanJustAllan
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    Hm… Amazing how some can judge so *clearly* from just a few lines of text. My father passed away a few days ago. I’ve read the replies since then, and quite frankly – one person at least is extremely arrogant in their assumptions.

    This forum is after all, about LEGAL & ACCOUNTING. Considering that, I’d hardly make the entire discussion about my grief… Even though reading back, I DID mention this and even admitted extreme depression.

    If they had bothered to read AND comprehend before engaging their mouth, they would have noticed the reason I posted here. That is, that *I* wasn’t the one that brought the will up – others did – while I was suffering – and while Dad was dying. They couldn’t even wait until he was gone to rub my nose in it about what they’d done to me/my wife/my kids – and then tut-tutted (like the dunce here) when it added to my grief.

    (In other words, while I didn’t WANT to be thinking about wills, etc. it was forced upon me.)

    I couldn’t wish what has happened to us on anyone – even self-righteous bigmouths. And even if I DID *THINK* what they typed, I sure wouldn’t display my arrogance by opening my big mouth to SAY it. I guess it goes to prove though, who really has the flaw.

    Anyway… A heart-felt thank you to all the mature replies and those who offered their sympathy. The sick feeling in my stomach and sleepless nights are only beginning though. Although I still don’t want to face this right now, another family member organised a lawyer. Much of the advice here was the same as that lawyer gave. (Writing everything down, placing a stop on the will, etc.)

    I also wanted to say – if you don’t have a will – and you care anything for your children/spouse, please make one – and write reasons WHY you want things that way. A couple of hundred dollars to save more grief on top of your death is well worth it.

    Allan.

    Profile photo of Robbie BRobbie B
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    Allan,

    I am truly sorry to hear about your father passing. However, my position remains the same. I do not tread on eggshells in any situation as I believe the truth is always more important than anything else in life. If you consider this self-righteous and immature, I pity you even more.

    By the way, I did read and comprehend what you wrote. You were worrying about money when your father was dying regardless of how the situation arose. What you think of me and my response aside, am I wrong in my comprehension of the situation????

    It was pretty black & white to me.

    TMA


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    Life is rarely black and white Rob. I have noticed that in the most dire situations people lock onto all sorts of things to focus on – I wonder if it is a protective mechanism.

    I am sure that Allen’s situation was very tough for him and still is.

    Simon Macks
    Residential and Commercial Finance Broker
    [email protected]
    0425 228 985

    Comments may not be relevant to individual circumstances. If you intend making any investment, financial or taxation decision you should consult a professional adviser.

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