Onya Aussie,
I was wondering how to re-enter this discussion and intellegently convey de Bottons message. But you are doing so exceedingly well.
I enjoyed the book very much and have been groping around this subject for a number of years without being able to crystallize it as de Botton has.
Cheers
Being an atheist and all… I think I wouldn;t feel comfortable with approaches that suggest spirituality as a solution. My readings about class and status have always been from a sociological/marxist perspective, so really, I have a political economy approach to it. then again… if he’s looking at a collective anomie (depression) that derives from status… then I suppose he’s looking for some kind of internal driver to make people happier.
Whatever happened to good old revolution to spark people up a bit? It’s sure good for the have-nots.
Thought aussie and wayne might like this. Here’s a bastardisation of Marie Antoinette’s “Let them eat cake” thing… (when MA was told her people had no bread to eat, she said let them eat cake. [baaa]
So Howard gets told of the problem of homeless people in Australia, and he responds with “Let them buy IP’s.” hehe. (I know, it’s a shocker, but hey- it’s only Tuesday!)
kay henry
Code:the author makes an interesting observation about philosophy and people. he says that when you become interested in philosophy and you start to understand the human condition you begin to realise that ‘most people know very little most of the the time’ ie that once you realise that people in general dont know what they are doing then the world becomes a pretty lonely place, but its quite empowering because armed with this knowledge you no longer take what people say too seriously…hence you can deal with stupid things like kjeeping up with the jones’s much better..This idea that people don’t know what they are doing takes responsibility out of their actions. It also encourages you to detach from people and reality and personally encourages the easy way out of life through indifference.
A lot of eastern philosophies take this angle, but it is a bit of a cop out IMO for western capitalist society.
Try interacting and acheiving things in society with a third party perspective.
This type of thinking (ok i haven’t read the book) gets CREAMED in the real world.[medieval]
lifexperience
the author makes an interesting observation about philosophy and people. he says that when you become interested in philosophy and you start to understand the human condition you begin to realise that ‘most people know very little most of the the time’ ie that once you realise that people in general dont know what they are doing then the world becomes a pretty lonely place, but its quite empowering because armed with this knowledge you no longer take what people say too seriously…hence you can deal with stupid things like kjeeping up with the jones’s much better..This idea that people don’t know what they are doing takes responsibility out of their actions. It also encourages you to detach from people and reality and personally encourages the easy way out of life through indifference.
A lot of eastern philosophies take this angle, but it is a bit of a cop out IMO for western capitalist society.
Try interacting and acheiving things in society with a third party perspective.
This type of thinking (ok i haven’t read the book) gets CREAMED in the real world.[medieval]
lifexperience
Aussie,
The book sounds quite logical to me.
And yes the trick is in being able to fit yourself in consciously.
It’s what very very good sales people do. They are chameleons.
Cheers,
Aceyducey
as de botton wld say ‘we’re all selling something!!’
some of us just dont know it yet!!
I agree with Aussie, Aceyducey. You may think you know what attracts you to miss X, but unless you dig up all what is hidden in your subconscious, you probably will never know.
I was told once to try the following experiment: When you see a female that you find attractive, take a mental picture of all the features that you find interesting and try to find a logical reason for each subject of such attraction. Invariably if you follow the right pattern of questioning you will find that your mind is selecting the person better equipped for reproduction and upbringing of your progenies.
Clearly not what you would tell your date.When it comes to selecting our friends we follow a similar crude method of selection this time with a different objective in mind. Our survival and preservation.
We don’t really know it and we all use different yardstick to measure what we think is better for such purpose. In all cases our intellect, embellishes our actions with a lot of emotional, cultural, artistic and other paraphernalia, but the underlaying motivations are there, simple and basic, reproduce and survive.May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcHi Marc,
I have heard the reproduction/survival theory before, but the theory tends to loose credence when applied to same sex couples,Regards
Steven
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I don’t know if you are rattling my chain, but in case you are serious, perhaps I can say that it would be the exception that confirms the rule[blush2]
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcWhy would Steven not be serious, Marc? And of course, we’ve all heard of the reproduction and other biologically determinist theories- they’re not new. I guess they kind of kill off older people who are beyond reproductive years, from falling in love or attraction too.
As for me, I just like extremely good-looking people. Of course, I’m too unconscious to know why… but I am also too shallow to care. hehehe.
kay henry
Kay, the mechanism of our subconscious is not theory, it is fact. Older people apply the same principles to choose their partenrs that they did the rest of their life. The fact that they are no longer able to reproduce does not change a life long “system”.
The study of how our mind works is fascinating yet needs some dedication and cannot be stated in a few sentences, yet a vast number of people choose to ignore its existence and think purely in terms of their conscious mind, rejecting explanations like the above as unproven or weird ‘theories’.
We are programmed for our likes and dislikes, we are programmed for certain purposes, we are programmed to reproduce and survive. Over and around such basic program we have a web of other likes and dislikes we build from the day we are born and that makes our character. To believe that our conscious mind controls all we do is naive to say the least. To understand what makes us tick and to find the way to change the values and ‘programs’ that do not serve us, is the first step to achievement.
To deny the mechanism of the subconscious is like driving a car and believing firmly that we make the wheels turn by pressing on the accelerator’s pedal.
We choose our friends for their status, and the reason we do so is because it serves our drive for survival. The values that we use for such choices are imprinted in our subconscious, and vary from one person to the other. To say “I don’t do that” simply means “I do not do that consciously”… yet you and I and everyone else does it because it is part of our subconscious programming, and no ammount of “conscious opposition” can turn such program around.
May God prosper you always.[biggrin]
MarcMarc said:
To say “I don’t do that” simply means “I do not do that consciously”…Aka “denial”; an integral part of our survival mechanism and the programming to which you are referring.
Cheers,
Jo
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