All Topics / Help Needed! / FHOG and negative gearing

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  • Profile photo of sweenysweeny
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    @sweeny
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 9

    Hi All,

    I'm a first time poster looking for some advice. I performed a couple of searches but I haven't been able to find posts which fit my situation, so here goes:

    – I would like to buy an IP
    – My long-term goals in doing this are reduce income tax and build equity
    – I have never owned a property

    Is it possible to claim the benefits of the FHOG and still negatively gear the property in the long term? For example, could I do the following:

    – Buy a property P1, using an interest-only loan
    – Claim the stamp duty exemption on P1 (FHOG)
    – Claim the $7k grant on P1 (FHOG)
    – Live in P1 for 6 months
    – Move out of P1 and rent it out at T+6mths, keeping the same loan
    – Claim rental losses from T+6mths onwards as a reduction in taxable income

    Any advice would be much appreciated!

    Profile photo of stevo81stevo81
    Member
    @stevo81
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 16

    I think you can do this. I have found a lot of lenders dont like you taking out IO loans for PPOR, this isnt to say it cant be done. You can also avoid CGT if you move back into your investment property within 6 years. You just need to live in it again for atleast 6 months  and not purchase another PPOR.

    Remember stamp duty excemption is only up to 500K and then is worked on a sliding scale up to 600k.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Yes, many do that.

    Stevo – I think those figures for the stamp duty may vary from state to state – those figures look like for NSW.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Hi Sweeny

    Yes the strategy you describe is exactly what we would recommend to any new investor starting out who hadnt previously purchased a PPOR.

    Agree with Steve that a lot of lenders dont like doing an interest only loan on your PPOR but there are still a few that will do.

    Your Broker should be able to give you a range of lending options.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of amazingjefferyamazingjeffery
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    @amazingjeffery
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 68

    Some loans are setup with an interest applicable period from 3-10 years so you could use this couldnt you?

    Im just going through the process now and have chosen this type of loan as i will live in my PPOR but in a year or 2 it will become an IP, i dont plan to own the house longer then 10 years.   It will take me longer to generate equity from paying the loan off but as I see it the extra cash can be used to save for another property and also for some quick renovations.  I will then move when im done, rent the house out and sell a few years down the track…….this is all depending on what the mines decide to do of course….but we are sitting on the largest unmined uranium deposit in the world so i think im safe for a while. 

    Then I believe even after the IO period you can refinance the loan and do the same again…. Ive never done it but this is what ive been told.

    Profile photo of stevo81stevo81
    Member
    @stevo81
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 16

    I have read a recent article explaining how people who purchase a PPOR and then transfer it to an IP, are to some extent taking advantage of a small loop hole within the system. Its designed  for people who need to move for work related purposes etc.
    I am unsure how they can regulate this, or if it's regulated at all, but looks like a good strategy if you can get some good tax breaks from it.
    Remember the building has to be newer than 1985 to claim depreciation from the building, which i would imagine takes up a decent portion of what you can claim, im certainly no expert on the matter, other than that it would just be the appliances and the tax breaks from negative gearing, if it is.
    I would be looking for a newer building, and nothing built prior to 1985 to get the most out of it.
    I also dont see why you cant just redraw the principle from a P&I loan every few months, and use those funds to renovate, which can then be claimed against depreciation for tax. (carpet, kitchen etc).
    Please feel free to correct anything i have mentioned. I am learning  a lot as i go here.
    this website is great.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    There is no transfer required if you wish to change your property into an investment. You simply move out and rent it. Not really a loop hole in my opinion as the requirement for the FHOG is to live in the property for at least 6 months. As long as you do that you are abiding by the regulations.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of sweenysweeny
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    @sweeny
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 9

    Thanks everyone, your posts have been extremely helpful!

    I was intending to get a pre-approval for an IO loan with a 100% offset account. It is likely that I will take a reduction in salary in the near future, and I want pre-approval based on my current salary. Also, I am currently spending a lot of time overseas, and wanted to reduce any hassles (such as obtaining finance approval) if I spot a property suitable for purchase in one of my short trips back to Australia. Is getting pre-approval advised?

    Also, should I tell the bank that my intention would be for the property to be a PPOR for 6 months, and then an IP after that?

    Terryw wrote:
    There is no transfer required if you wish to change your property into an investment. You simply move out and rent it. Not really a loop hole in my opinion as the requirement for the FHOG is to live in the property for at least 6 months. As long as you do that you are abiding by the regulations.

    Are there any specific pieces of paperwork you have to keep to prove that you were living in the property before a certain date, and then not living in the property after that date?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Post Count: 16,213

    Are there any specific pieces of paperwork you have to keep to prove that you were living in the property before a certain date, and then not living in the property after that date?

    Nothing specific – the ATO/OSR may audit you and ask you to prove you lived there. It is up to you to show proof such as connections of electricity/phone/internet, change of electoral roll, letters etc. Also changing the electricity to that address may not be enough, there was a case in VIC where he connected the electricity, but the usuage amount showed he didn't live there.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of sweenysweeny
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    @sweeny
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 9

    Okay, I understand that if I buy a property and live in it for 6 months, then move out and rent it out for 6 years without buying another property, I can get:

    – $7k via FHOG [http://www.dtf.wa.gov.au/cms/uploadedFiles/_State_Revenue/FHOG/FHOG_Fact_Sheet.pdf]
    – a stamp duty exemption/reduction via FHOG [http://www.dtf.wa.gov.au/cms/content.aspx?id=2011]
    – an CGT exemption for the full 6.5 years [http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/36887.htm]

    However, I am confused about negative gearing/claiming rental losses as an income deduction. If I live in the property for the first 6 months, I would assume the purpose of the loan would be considered as to buy a PPOR. When I move out and start renting the property out, the property is now an IP. However, the original purpose of the loan was for a PPOR, so doesn't that mean that I cannot claim the interest as a deduction (fail the purpose test)?

    Can someone please help?

    stevo81 wrote:
    I think you can do this. I have found a lot of lenders dont like you taking out IO loans for PPOR, this isnt to say it cant be done. You can also avoid CGT if you move back into your investment property within 6 years. You just need to live in it again for atleast 6 months  and not purchase another PPOR.
    Terryw wrote:
    There is no transfer required if you wish to change your property into an investment. You simply move out and rent it. Not really a loop hole in my opinion as the requirement for the FHOG is to live in the property for at least 6 months. As long as you do that you are abiding by the regulations.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    The purpose of the loan is to buy the house. When the house is being lived in this interest is a private expense, when being rented it is a investment expense.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of dtrumpdtrump
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    @dtrump
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 50

    If you are buying the property as a long term IP but in the short term (6 months) as a PPOR in order to get the FHOG, can you still use the proposed rental income as part of your loan application to incease your sevicabiltiy?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    dtrump wrote:
    If you are buying the property as a long term IP but in the short term (6 months) as a PPOR in order to get the FHOG, can you still use the proposed rental income as part of your loan application to incease your sevicabiltiy?

    Possibly.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of ummesterummester
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    @ummester
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 510
    dtrump wrote:
    If you are buying the property as a long term IP but in the short term (6 months) as a PPOR in order to get the FHOG, can you still use the proposed rental income as part of your loan application to incease your sevicabiltiy?

    That's an interesting question. I wonder, if a loan was allowed under that pretext and the government got upset about it, would the buyer or the bank be liable.

    I plan to by a PPOR with savings as deposit, so aren't really concerned about the 100% thing. I do plan to turn it into an IP after 6 months though, to use the tax savings to pay the residual down quicker. An extra 10k or so on the loan every 12 months, over 15 years, will make a massive difference to the length of the loan IMO.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Post Count: 16,213
    ummester wrote:
    dtrump wrote:
    If you are buying the property as a long term IP but in the short term (6 months) as a PPOR in order to get the FHOG, can you still use the proposed rental income as part of your loan application to incease your sevicabiltiy?

    That's an interesting question. I wonder, if a loan was allowed under that pretext and the government got upset about it, would the buyer or the bank be liable.

    I plan to by a PPOR with savings as deposit, so aren't really concerned about the 100% thing. I do plan to turn it into an IP after 6 months though, to use the tax savings to pay the residual down quicker. An extra 10k or so on the loan every 12 months, over 15 years, will make a massive difference to the length of the loan IMO.

    Does the government often get 'upset' and not obey their own laws?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of ummesterummester
    Member
    @ummester
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 510
    Terryw wrote:
    Does the government often get 'upset' and not obey their own laws?

    All the time:) You should try working for them.

    That's not what I meant, though. The scenario where you use future rental income to secure a PPOR loan shows the buyer's mindset from the outset and that mindset is not in line with the requirements of the grant.

    It is one thing to put some money down for a PPOR and get the grants with it and then change your mind later, as far as the bank is concerned. It is another for the bank to have recorded proof that the purchasing intent was never for a PPOR.

    Personally, I don't recon the banks would consider it but it would be interesting to find out.

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Simple one to answer NO lenders would not accept it.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of sweenysweeny
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    @sweeny
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 9
    Terryw wrote:
    The purpose of the loan is to buy the house. When the house is being lived in this interest is a private expense, when being rented it is a investment expense.

    Hi Terryw, do you have a link to a .gov.au website to support this? I am still not 100% convinced.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    You would have to look at the tax act. I am in Bangkok at the moment……….

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
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    see s 8.1(1) of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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