Are seminars scams?

Speaking in riddles does not answer the simple questions put forward. Not everyone can easily identify a ‘snake oil salesman’ nor do all the high cost seminar presenters deserve their fee.

In one breath, you are saying we should be able to identify the shonks while in the next you are saying we should stop whinging about the shonks. If we do the latter, how do we determine the former?

Talking in riddles is fun!

The Mortgage Adviser

I have conducted seminars in the past and I will be shortly conducting them on New Zealand. I am running a service. Our workshops will involve all aspests of investing in New Zealand. I do not consider this a scam. It means that people may learn something do it themselves or use my service. They will have met me in person and they can then determine wither my service is for them

Nigel Kibel

http://www.propertyknowhow.com.au

Australian and New Zealand Buyers advocate
service and seminars

wezwaz said:

“Show people … that you don’t need the money to fund your investment program. Tell people exactly why you are doing this.”

wez, I think I know where you’re coming from here… but the most annoying thing I have heard is when seminar presenters say, “I don’t need to do these seminars- I make [insert fabulous figure here] per hour, and I am only doing these seminars to HELP people.” I think that is insincere rubbish- the seminars are held to make money for the presenter- of course they are. To suggest otherwise is a marketing ploy.

If people want to present seminars and can find an audience for them- well, if they have found a unique product- no issue there. But it is the tales of “I don’t need your money, I am just doing this seminar to share the bucks around” stuff- I find that to be embarrassing.

I reckon presenters should wear a Trump hairdo- that’d pack ’em in. [biggrin]

kay henry

I partly agree. (Not with the Trump hair do that does not merit any comments)

Yet if someone feeds people this line of the philanthropist seminar presenter, it is because that is precisely what people expect.

Why?… beats me.

Do teachers work for free? Do professors work for free? Is business and marketing knowledge less valuable because we must pay for it?

The image of the magnate that wants to re-pay his debt to the society (he clearly robbed to become a magnate) by letting some gold coin slip out of his hand for free so that the peasants can pick them up and come out of their misery is a product of the masses victim mentality.
To actually use this as a way to the seminar audience is pretty pathetic I admit.

The only seminars that are free, are so because they are advertising for a product or service.
Wrong?
Not necessarily and depending on the product of course.

A seminar that offers business or marketing knowledge must be paid for and the presenter should get more money out of the seminar than he would just by applying the information provided. If this is not the case, he is wasting his time since all he needs to do is stay home and apply what he knows. The seminar is a way to extract additional profit from his findings.
Wrong?
Why?
Do you offer rent free properties as a way to repay society from your success (obviously achieved by robbing your tenants from their hard earned dollars just to live there)
THere are plenty of shonky seminars and there are plenty of good ones.
There are lots of seminars that are good for me yet may be of no use to you, and vice versa. And there is a huge majority of people who attend perfectly good seminars yet put none into practice, either because they do not have the appropriate vehicle to do so or are just plain lazy, and will claim for the rest of their life to have been ripped off.

http://www.chosen4u.com/?ace

“What you want in your life occasionally shows up…
what you must have… always does.” . . . . . Doug Firebaugh
May God Prosper you.[biggrin]
Marc

It may be harsh, but I think if you pass the 3 below criteria;

Not in jail
Over 18
Not legally insane

Then you are big enough and ugly enough to look after yourself. No-one is forcing anyone to go to these seminars, or indeed stay once they are there and no-one is forcing you to hand over money to anyone.

At some point in time, one has to stand up and be responsible for one’s actions.

Cheers,

Dazzling

“No point having a cake if you can’t eat it.”

No, it ain’t that simple. Like a lot of things it sounds simple. For example, many ads claim that share trading can easily be learnt. Absolute rubbish. Share trading requires tremendous skill and years of learning to even have any hope of success. Success in the share market doesn’t automatically follow from years of hard work, sorry to say. People can dream though.

Re wealth seminars, please sit for a moment and think of young people just starting out in life, and imagine how they can easily be seduced by wild claims about becoming rich. Remember how “green” you were at that age. Have you always immediately recognised scams or overstated claims? Many others also are not worldly enough to instantly recognise these things. They may be innocently trying to better themselves without knowing exactly what they are getting into.

Yes, we have to educate ourselves and be vigilant. But let’s not endorse all seminar presenters as being squeaky clean and noble in their goals to educate us. Anyone raking in thousands per head for a few days is definitely making a lot of money, irrespective of whether they are successful investors or not.

Many wealth seminar presenters manipulate their audience for their own gain. I have been there to see it (at introductory presentations) and you hear the old lines trotted out all the time. I can see how it is very persuasive to people not in the know. Before you know it they’ve parted with thousands they can’t afford. I don’t see this as acceptable practice. I am not saying all presenters have the same motives; some may be genuine and others aren’t.

Two reasons: Many people are too politely inculcated (indoctrinated?) to be able to do it.

More importantly, many scam seminars are too well constructed to permit such an interruption. In a hall of 1000 people how do you (unamplified) shout down, or even question, a wired up speaker with no compunction about giving equal air time?

It’s not that easy for most, and especially for the vulnerable which is what makes scam seminars despicable. Having said that, my wife and I have spent tens of thousands of dollars on seminars and have not regretted it at all. The worst value seminar I went on was ‘free’.

Some were certainly better value than others, but even where I thought I had been dudded, more value came out later than I had really paid for.

Marc

Please check your mailbox. I have sent a personal email.

Wes.

Kerwyn

So, a day and a half would be plenty of time to implement and test the strategies? How many people do you think would be too intimidated to ask for their money back? Some of the wording in these guarantees would make it difficult to get your money back. Do you think that when someone asks for their money back it is granted no questions asked?

OK, so five people…ten people maybe ask for their money back and it is granted. That’s five or ten out of a few hundred probably. Net profit from the seminar still stacks up very nicely.

Things are not always as they seem. Promising a money back guarantee is a marketing ploy to get people in, because it makes people think they have absolutely nothing to lose. If the seminar presenter rejects your claim, go to ASIC or OFT and see if they will help you. Not likely. Anyone who has had anything to do with these toothless tigers knows they are useless.

Marc

You might be referring to some of my comments in your reply. If so, you are taking me out of context. Let’s put a few things straight.

There are guarantees that aren’t worth the paper they’re written on because they don’t get honoured. I have experienced this personally. Therefore, I would say some guarantees are marketing ploys (as you show with the definition).

At no stage have I ever indicated creating wealth is bad and I don’t think others visiting this site see it that way either. Afterall, it is one of my main goals in life.

Who said seminar presenters should have a philanthropic aim? I didn’t. That is often the presenter’s own claim. Tell me they don’t do a hard sell, e.g. “I’ll show you how to create money out of thin air and leave your job in the next 90 days.”

Give me good reasons why a two-day seminar/educational course is appropriately priced at $5,000, say, as opposed to $500. Don’t you think it is a little greedy to milk that much per person? I forgot. It is all the “secrets” we get to learn. That line is getting very tiring. Is it fair and reasonable for a presenter to gross $500,000 for two days of instruction that is readily available for nothing in a library?

I don’t see all seminars as scams. Some presenters are more honest than others. I have no doubt there is some sound education to be gained. However, there are no secrets and it shouldn’t cost a fortune to attain this information. Strategies presented have probably worked for someone at some time. But to present risky strategies that work occasionally under the right conditions as being the norm is a bit deceptive. Should the fact that someone implemented a risky strategy and it paid off be a reason to promote it as a valid means to create wealth? I doubt it.

Just to round out the current discussion, here is an example I can relate to:

Since I understand the mechanics of trading options, I could put together a seminar including all the glossy hype to suck people in. I charge participants $5,000 a head and get conservatively 100 to turn up. I walk away with $500,000 gross less some expenses – still a very tidy sum for a few days standing in front of a white board.

I have never traded an option in my life, but I know how they work. Knowing how options work and making money trading them are worlds apart. Still, I could make a heap of money training people to trade them. Now, let’s be honest, do you think this would be an honest way for me to make an exorbitant amount of money quickly?

There is one vital ingredient I forgot to mention. I lack the bravado and my ethics would not allow me to pull it off. Many presenters have bravado in spades and don’t mind compromising their ethics. Again, all presenters are not like this, before you get the wrong idea.

Marc, you should read the other post in this forum reviewing Ed Burton. Another sourpuss, or could there be an element of truth?

Wes.