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  • Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    Hi all,

    I can’t for the life of me see HOW adding ANY increase to the current cash rate will help anything.  Like, I know we are at an “emergency rate level”, but then, with Covid, Ukraine, petrol costs, and rental/housing costs all doing their thing, they are increasing our costs of living DESPITE anything Australia can do (well, maybe Australia can help with the housing bit – but it won’t happen overnight, and adding to the cash rate won’t do it).  So just HOW does an increase right now help anything?    Sure our economy is doing better than many – perhaps THAT is reason enough to come off the 0.1% setting.

    But as our living costs increase, how does adding MORE cost via a mortgage help with anything?   Add to that (from an earlier post) that our non-discretionary costs are increasing faster than our discretionary ones.   Hmm, a mortgage sounds pretty non-discretionary to me !!   So let’s add to THAT and crank up the pain level even further – like, that’ll help ?????  HOW?  Push people out of homes into a rental market that can’t cope?  Top idea that !!  NOT !!

    And some talking heads are saying “With more cash rate rises to come over the next 6 months”….   I just shake my head – I can’t see HOW any Govt could sit by and watch as more folk go into mortgage stress.  It all just sounds wrong to me right now.

    Hopefully Steve will have some answers on Thursday evening as the Deal Club kicks off.  Can’t wait – maybe his cool head can help my concerns !!

    Benny

     

    Profile photo of Steve McKnightSteve McKnight
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    The answer is inflation Benny.

    All the cheap money is enticing people to spend, which is causing prices to rise. So too though are supply chain issues that aren’t related to consumption though.

    The argument is that by taking money out of people’s pockets by causing them to spend more on interest it leaves them less to spend on other things, and so that relieves pressure on prices, because demand is diminished.

    It’s a big political statement though to increase by 25bp, higher than the 15bp expected. I was expecting no change this month, but a change next month, as wage price data is not released until later this week, and the RBA could have sat pat with good reason, and not dropped an anvil on SocMo’s head.

    It’s not panic stations though, as we are coming off the lowest cash rate ever, but, it is also true to say that there has been a 250% increase off the base rate (.1 to .35). I think that will hurt some people who are already struggling.

    Steve McKnight | PropertyInvesting.com Pty Ltd | CEO
    https://www.propertyinvesting.com

    Success comes from doing things differently

    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    Thanks Steve.  Good comment about “dropping an anvil on ScoMo’s head.  So true !!!    That will give Labor lots more ammunition for the next 3 weeks.

    And yes – a 250% increase.   Well caught.   For the person with the average mortgage of (say) 2.5%, that is a 10% increase right off the bat.  Why so big so quickly?   While we have a housing problem, a 10% increase could lead to even more rental anguish.   A $400wk rental might now be $440.  And what about the “6 rises before year end”?

    Gee, I hope the RBA read the tea leaves before doing too much more…    What would 6 x 0.25% rises equate to by year end?  1.5% on 2.5% is a 60% increase.  With over 40% of householders already in mortgage stress, this has the potential to rip the hearts out of the average Aussie.

    Yes, of course,  that 10% (or 60%) increase is accurate for those with IO mortgages, but in reality the % lift is a lot less for P&I loans.   Still could be half that though – and a 30% increase by year’s end is still quite significant.   Time for RBA attendees to have cold showers ahead of each months’ meeting methinks !!!

    Benny

    Profile photo of sandhyasandhya
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    Hi Benny,

    Perhaps my question is naive, may I pls ask how you got this: “For the person with the average mortgage of (say) 2.5%, that is a 10% increase right off the bat.”?

    PS: Figured it out, could not delete the post, so here’s the PS.

     

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Profile photo of sandhya sandhya.
    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    Hi Sandhya,

    Sorry, my comment was a bit terse.  Good to know you worked it out.  For others who were wondering, let me add a bit more around that calculation :-

    For the person with the average mortgage of (say) 2.5%, that is a 10% increase right off the bat.

    A 0.25% increase against a 2.5% mortgage interest rate is a 10% lift.   That is actually correct for anyone with an IO (Interest Only) mortgage.  For those with a P&I (paying both Principal and Interest) mortgage, the % uplift will be lower.  That is because the uplift is measured against a larger $ amount.

    As a quick example, someone paying a $400k Interest Only mortgage at 2.5% will be paying $833.33/mth.  After this uplift (assuming YOUR bank passes on that 0.25% lift) the repayments will be $916.67 (or an extra $83.33 per month – a straight 10% lift in costs).

    For someone with a P&I (paying both Principal and Interest) loan, the actual monthly cost will be nearer $1600 per month – and the 0.25% rise in Interest (adding $83.33 to their repayments) will be an uplift of 83/1600 or just 5.2%.

    Benny

    Profile photo of sandhyasandhya
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    Thanks Benny. Much appreciate you starting and elaborating on the discussion.

    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    RBA:  Here they go again.  A 0.50% increase this time, after a 0.25% first up.   So, double what I said last time.

    But hey there are a few schools of thought here.  The RBA have been jawboning for months about “needing to have 6 rises of cash rate by end of year” or some similar rhetoric.   Now, by going hard right off the bat, some analysts say they may not have to go so hard in future as these two increases are likely to take the heat out of the average family’s spending and having them tend to save more (to cover future house payments?) rather than buying stuff.

    Then again, if the RBA did continue to go hard, I can just see tens of thousands of Aussie families in mortgage distress in a time where inflation is hammering them for food, utilities and petrol – and the increased mortgage interest is one extra increase they DON’T need right now.

    Hopefully that idea of “6 rate rises” will turn out to be the threatened stick that doesn’t have to be used after all.   Time will tell….

     

    Benny

    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    Wow !!  There must be more to this – is the RBA deaf, dumb, and blind?   First, let’s take an early comment from back a few posts:-

    For the person with the average mortgage of (say) 2.5%, that is a 10% increase right off the bat. Why so big so quickly? While we have a housing problem, a 10% increase could lead to even more rental anguish. A $400wk rental might now be $440. And what about the “6 rises before year end”?

    OK, so since THAT time, there have been two more increases (and what increases!)  The second increase was 0.5% as was the third.  So suddenly, from a 0.1% cash rate, we are now at a 1.35% cash rate.   OK, that affects banks and THEIR transfer of money.  But let’s take a look at the mortgagor – the poor old Mum and Dad who were on a 2.5% Interest Rate for their mortgage.

    That 1.25% lift is a FIFTY percent increase in the Interest cost of their mortgage, with (it seems) more yet to come?   Who can handle a 50% increase?

    What ever happened to the RBA of old who would make a couple of changes, then sit back to read the tea leaves and see what effect the changes had rather than slamming down harder on the brakes when property is already becoming shakey as buyers desert the market?

    Yeah, I know, that 0.1% Cash Rate always was an “Emergency Setting” – yet there appeared to be no move made last year to increase it as our employment rate dropped to its lowest level in years, and, even today, businesses are still struggling to find workers.   Wasn’t that a sign of recovery back then?  And didn’t house prices start increasing then too?   Wouldn’t it have been smart to tap the brakes back then?

    What took the RBA so long to get off that “emergency setting”?   Why does it now (as prices of food, petrol, rents, etc all go through the roof) decide to add to the pain with three increases in a row, and maybe yet a fourth to come in early August?

    To me, this all sounds a little “too much, but too late” from the RBA.  Can we vote in another RBA group please !!

    Benny

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    I just caught a headline on TV that indicates the RBA is considering a 50 basis points rise for EACH MONTH up to year end.

    Please say it isn’t so….

    I bloody hope NOT !!!   That would be a further 2.5% uplift on the 1.25% already foisted on us.  And let’s check the figures from my last post re the likely effects of such a braindead move:-

    But let’s take a look at the mortgagor – the poor old Mum and Dad who were on a 2.5% Interest Rate for their mortgage.

    That 1.25% lift is a FIFTY percent increase in the Interest cost of their mortgage, with (it seems) more yet to come?   Who can handle a 50% increase?

    If true, this prospective 2.5% lift by year end will totally cruel the Mums and Dads.  Forget a 50% rise in the Interest costs of a mortgage – try 150% !!

    Landlords will often have IO loans – in effect, their mortgage costs will be affected in direct proportion to the RBA’s lift.  Let’s take a realistic mortgage amount and what would have been their IO payment each month.   A mortgage of $400k is not out of the question – if on a 2.5% IO interest rate, that is a cost of $10k pa or  $833 pm on that mortgage.     So far, the RBA has lifted that rate by 50% (see quote above).  So now $15k pa or $1250 pm (about $100 a week extra that needs to come from somewhere).

    By year end, that landlord might well be paying $25k pa or $2083.33 pm – from $833 to $2083.  What needs to happen to the rents he receives to offset THAT hulking rate increase?  That is now a $300 a week increase in his costs !!!!!!!!   You think we have a rental crisis now?  Just wait till year end !!!!

    All I can say is that the new Treasurer’s RBA Review can’t come soon enough.  I am hearing little good news re the RBA at all.

    Benny

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    And, sure enough, a further 50 basis points (or 0.50%) added just days ago.  I do hope the new Govt takes the time to give the RBA a bloody good talking-to !!!   They sure can do with it.

    We are well on the way to that 150% increase.  Where are we right now then?   A total 175 basis points (or 70% – see below) so far.

    A 0.25% increase against a 2.5% mortgage interest rate is a 10% lift. That is actually correct for anyone with an IO (Interest Only) mortgage. For those with a P&I (paying both Principal and Interest) mortgage, the % uplift will be lower. That is because the uplift is measured against a larger $ amount.

    Using that same starting rate of 2.5% interest once more, where are we now, with the RBA having added 1.75% in just 4 months (and the banks dutifully passing it on to all borrowers….)    Isn’t that a 70% lift already?    Who can handle that, even as petrol, food, transport, and utilities climb into the stratosphere too?

    Hey, RBA, stop and smell the roses !!!  This is ridiculous – and dangerous.

    As this began, the warning signs were already there – check out the first post of this whole topic :-

    https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/5083103-how-does-an-increase-in-the-rbas-cash-rate-help/#post-5083103

    Don’t all those things still apply today, and since then, mortgage interest has jumped by 60% for many borrowers?  Isn’t that alarming?   Time for the Govt to step in – with an axe perhaps…..

    Benny

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    Well, same same….  The RBA does it yet again.   No “wait to see the effect”.

    Qualifying Rate – I heard they stepped from 2% to 3% some months ago.  And folks couldn’t get a loan unless they could handle a 3% lift in Interest on a mortgage.  OK, fair enough, but then what of the FACTS that it hasn’t JUST been mortgage costs that have been increasing lately?   Hasn’t petrol increased by something like 50%?   Food costs?  Energy costs?   For the person who WAS able to qualify recently, how much buffer does the 3% qualifying rate really provide when all these other non-discretionary costs are being stretched along with the mortgage Interest Rate?

    After today, the RBA cash rate is 2.35% and the average mortgage Interest Rate will soon be 90% higher than it was just 6 months ago.

    How many folks are going to be able to handle that?  How many were already stretching to buy a property in latter days, then found their new purchase has LOST value, even as their mortgage increases?   More importantly, when did the RBA get taken over by forces who are more interested in bringing our citizens to their knees?   Will the current RBA ever get back into the mode of “touching the brakes” then sitting back to see its effect before touching them again?  Or are we SO out of control that the only way is to keep on applying those brakes.  If that was what was happening, surely they would’ve been better to do this in one 2% Chunk rather than pretending that “It’s just a little bit more” five times already.

    If I ever had any faith in the RBA before, they’ve lost me now !!!

    Benny

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    Well, well, well – the RBA only lifted by 0.25% this month.  Are they learning?  Or (as I’ve heard one commentator mention) will they continue to lift, only to bring rates back down next year when results prove “They went too far, too fast!”   No news to me with that last comment (check the earlier posts above).

    But OK, with a 0.25% lift in October, that allows this update :-

    After today, the RBA cash rate is 2.60% and the average mortgage Interest Rate will soon be 100% higher than it was just 6 months ago.

    How are folks travelling in your area?  As mentioned earlier, it is not just mortgage interest that has lifted astronomically in the last months.  One example is a box of tissues.  The cheapest 6 months ago were $1 at both Woolies and Coles.  Just two or three months ago, these lifted to $1.30 – and recently they leapt again to $1.70.   A 70% increase in half a year?   Lucky it’s just tissues…..

    Oh, it’s not?   Hmm, what else?   Petrol, power, interest rates are the obvious ones – but also (smaller?) lifts in some foods, postage…..   And what of other non-discretionary items?   Insurances?   Have to be going up as floods hit don’t they?   What about Rates?  I haven’t seen these lift – yet – but the lift in Council costs must lead to a similar lift in Rates over time – but wait, I did get a new valuation on our home, and noted a 30% lift in its value.  That will become a Rate increase of 30% over time.

    Have I missed anything?  Probably…… let me know…..

    Benny

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    November, and the RBA, with yet another 0.25% lift, does the “same old, same old” – well not really !!

    The “same old” used to be “Lift rates a couple of months in a row, then sit back and contemplate their navels to see the effect of their actions”.  But not these days.   Now it is squeeze the life out of everything by increasing Interest Rates (a major non-discretionary item in many folks’ budgets) while other non-discretionary items have already jumped hugely.

    Power increases and petrol/diesel costs have already had a major effect on stores and their products – e.g. food (a pretty useful non-discretionary item, that one), not to mention basic household costs too.  So let’s add to the pain by continuing to bump the Cash Rate !!

    Who is really controlling the ship, and why are they steering it onto the rocks?

    It’s got me bluffed !!

    Benny

    Profile photo of NgaNga
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    Well Benny,

    people voted the Labour government. So we have to cope one way or another.
    what we can do is pay down our debts asap.

    this is something I have told everyone I know for the last 2 years.

    No one listen. My sister even told me “You should spend money on a  holiday for now as the interest is very low.”

    sigh.

     

    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    OK, here we are at year’s end, with no more RBA intervention until early Feb 2023.   In the last 3 months of 2022 they “went easy”on us, with just 0.25% each month.   The total uplift from April 2022 (when the Cash Rate was 0.1%) has been a further 3%.

    Sounds innocuous, doesn’t it?  A bit like the Interest Rate you “might” be able to get on your Savings in a bank.  But is it really just 3%?

    No bloody way.  This 3% has been an enormous blow to many.  Let’s take an example – back in July, it looked like an extra 2.5% increase could happen (after already lifting by 1.25%, giving a year end likely total of 3.75%) :-

    But let’s take a look at the mortgagor – the poor old Mum and Dad who were on a 2.5% Interest Rate for their mortgage.

    That 1.25% lift is a FIFTY percent increase in the Interest cost of their mortgage, with (it seems) more yet to come?   Who can handle a 50% increase?  If true, this prospective 2.5% lift by year end will totally cruel the Mums and Dads.  Forget a 50% rise in the Interest costs of a mortgage – try 150% !!

    With hindsight, we now know the total change was 3%, not the 3.75% that was projected in July – whew !!!   But it still has a huge effect.  That couple who were on 2.5% Interest with their mortgage at the beginning of 2022 will now be facing a 5.5% Interest Rate. And the increase since April was not 150% after all, but it still made 120%.  5.5 / 2.5 * 100 = 220% – i.e. a 120% increase on “what was before”.

    120% sounds a helluva lot more than 3%, don’t you think?   And the effect on a mortgage is seriously serious.

    The Interest component has more than doubled in just 8 months.   How does a landlord go with attempting to lift rents by 120%?   How do families facing petrol, power, food, insurance and mortgage increases cope?   How many have dropped into “mortgage stress”?   Would have to be a bunch, wouldn’t there?

    All I can do is hope (as someone else had commented) that the RBA realise in the New Year that “they went too far”and decide to drop things back somewhat.  I know, I know – the Interest Rate was on an emergency setting – it HAD to lift.  But then prices had ballooned upward, and a 100% lift in Interest on a $1m nortgage is a lot more hurtful than a 100% lift in Interest on a $250k mortgage.

    Did the Rate need to lift THAT far, THAT FAST????   I still say No – let’s hope the RBA enjoys their vacation time and relaxes a lot more into the New Year and have the IR’s relax a bit too.

    Benny

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    I heard on the radio this morning that Chris Bowen commented something like this – “With power prices having lifted 36% we must assist families who are doing it tough”.

    Hmm – how about the families with a 120% lift in Mortgage Interest costs, Chris?  What does Labor have for them?   I haven’t heard of that “RBA Review” happening either – isn’t it time?  C’mon Jim Chalmers, time to take them to task methinks !!

     

    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    Well, well, well !!   Out of interest, I went searching for a history of house prices over time in Australia.   The article also compared wages vs cost of housing, taking into account inflation and prevailing interest rates.  The data went from 1970 to 2020.   The results were (to me at least) a little surprising.  One take-away from the article was this one (remember, this was 2020, not today) :-

    It’s interesting to note that, although in all cases things are significantly less affordable than they were in 1970, in most cases we’re not actually at peak un-affordability when it comes to servicing a mortgage. Although house prices in all cities are at or near historical highs, interest rates are at all time lows. For Sydney, peak mortgage pain came in 1990 when average home loan rates peaked at about 17% and you were paying $4400 / month in 2020 dollars towards your mortgage.

    I say, with a 120% rise in Mortgage interest costs over the last 8 months or so, there has to be a heap of people in mortgage pain right now. Does it equal 1990? I don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it did. We will have reliable figures in a year or so, and can perhaps look back then to confirm.

    The article also went on to say that, once Interest rates got off the ground once more, the findings could change markedly:-

    Even though house prices are at or near all time highs, in pretty much all cities, mortgage payments are NOT at record highs. The reason is that interest rates are unprecedentedly low. If house prices continue to grow, or interest rates go up again, mortgage payments are likely to become unsustainable, particularly in Sydney.

    and then this:-

    Let’s hope interest rates stay at record lows – with today’s house prices, it’ll only take a relatively modest increase in interest rates for mortgage payments to become completely crippling.

    On here, we were aware of this likelihood – thanks to Steve, a year or more back, with his updates and warnings.  For others though, following projections of “no increase in Cash Rate until 2024” from the RBA, a lot of folks have been blindsided.  Good luck to them as they endeavour to keep going…..

    For those interested, here is the link to the whole article :-

    https://www.savings.com.au/home-loans/australian-house-prices-over-the-last-50-years-a-retrospective

    Benny

     

    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    Well, there are two more weeks before the RBA meets for cucumber sandwiches, strawberries and cream, and Moet.  Ahead of that, I hope they get to think long and hard about this quote:-

    Let’s hope interest rates stay at record lows – with today’s house prices, it’ll only take a relatively modest increase in interest rates for mortgage payments to become completely crippling. (quote – circa 2020)

    Well, is a 120% lift in Interest costs enough of a “modest increase” to tip folks over the cliff?  Add it to increases in food costs, petrol costs, power costs….  What now?  Is a further 10% or 20% (0.25% or 0.5%) lift really needed?  Inflation has nose-dived already – lots of belt-tightening going on….   Some economists are still saying “One or two more”…..

    What’ll it be, RBA?

     

    Profile photo of BennyBenny
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    Well, well, well – on the news last night, I hear some are calling for Phillip Lowe’s resignation.  I can’t say I blame them.  With yet another 0.25% (wait up, that is really 10% – see earlier posts) increase, the pain just gets more and more intolerable for many.   Let’s revisit an earlier statement from this topic:-

    What ever happened to the RBA of old who would make a couple of changes, then sit back to read the tea leaves and see what effect the changes had rather than slamming down harder on the brakes.

    Seems like that (somewhat sensible) ‘old’ RBA doesn’t exist any longer.   Is that Mr Lowe’s fault?  I don’t know, but SOMEBODY in the RBA should be saying “Hey, wait a minute – let’s think about this a bit more…..”    Shouldn’t they?   Shouldn’t Jim Chalmers be having a chat re what is going on?   And what happened to his earlier words re “Initiating a review of the RBA” or was that just a throwaway line from an inexperienced Treasurer?

    Surely “It’s time” for some action before the RBA drives our economy further into the ground.  And re their mantra about keeping inflation in a 2 – 3% band?  Who says that’s a good idea to push for that RIGHT NOW?   Long term, yes, but hey, with the cost of near EVERYTHING going up, and folks now struggling to pay a mortgage that has ballooned out over a 9 month period, do we really want to create more unemployment just so the RBA can get inflation down into that magic band?

    See, think on it – by taking funds out of the average person’s pocket, they cut back on spending, thus adding to the woes of small business owners who may be running a restaurant, so they sack staff too (and their mortgage – or their landlord’s – has also risen in cost, so they are making less from Joe Public, while also facing increasing costs).   Talk about a vicious circle – and much of it being of the RBA’s making.

    What’s the time, Albo?  Time to line up the RBA board and have a wee chat – for all of our sakes.  And bring a few attack dogs with you.  This has all got way beyond a joke.

    Benny

     

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    Just this morning an email from a local entrepreneur had a bunch of figures that I hope the RBA consider today when they meet.  The figures showed that the wheels have already fallen off, and that households are staggering.  He also quoted current CPI, GDP, jobs, and Inflation figures – all of them are showing a weakness that the RBA has been trying to engineer.  But it was his parting two sentences that had me smile:-

    “The only sensible thing to do is to stop hiking rates, just to make sure that the Aussie consumer is still breathing.  But the RBA doesn’t have a reputation for sensible.”

    Thanks Jon – good one!   And yes, as my earlier posts indicate, I totally agree with that last sentence.

    Question now is – will the RBA get to check their emails before making their decision today on what to do next with Interest Rates?   Or (as I suspect) are they totally on another planet?

     

    Edited later:-   Well, we got our answer – they are on another planet entirely.  A further 0.25% (another 10% really) brings the actual lift to around 140% extra Interest (based on a nominal 2.5% interest rate on a mortgage prior to the first increase – see earlier posts).

    How many people can cover a 140% rate increase without effort?   This stress is bound to have a huge impact on homeowners, business owners, renters, employees (who may suddenly have no job…).    And it hasn’t ended yet?   Sheesh !!   What does it have to take?

    I’m picking they will do another 2007/8 sequence where they raised rates way past where they should, only to madly chop them again once they realise they got it wrong.

    Anyone want to bet agin me?

    Benny

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Profile photo of Benny Benny. Reason: Extra after the rate rise
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