All Topics / Legal & Accounting / Hiding assets

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  • Profile photo of bob_jonesbob_jones
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    @bob_jones
    Join Date: 2012
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    Hi,

    I love this forum, just a have a quick question about strategies for hiding an investment property from creditors and future ex-spouses, etc?  i haven't purchased the property yet but will do so in the next few months.  What structures are useful or difficult to raid later?

    Thanks,

    Bob

    Profile photo of bob_jonesbob_jones
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    I should say, I'm in Australia.

    Bob.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Are you prepared to lie under oath? Make a false declaration – 5 years prison, max.

    If you go bankrupt you will need to disclose assets. Including assets held by someone else as trustee for yourself, whether the assets are in Australia or overseas.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Same with family law settlements whether those involving divorce or defacto separation.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of PLCPLC
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    @plc
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    Generally as Terry mentioned, you can't hide them as that would be considered fraud if something happens down the track and they aren't disclosed.

    You can protect assets somewhat using trusts, you would need to seek professional advise for your circumstances.

    Cheers

    Tom

    PLC | Phoenix Loan Consulting
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    Profile photo of Dan42Dan42
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    There's nowhere you can 'hide' assets.

    However, a discretionary trust can provide asset protection. The family courts have in past cases 'looked through' the trust t osee the beneficial owners of the assets, rendering the trust (in that particular case) next to useless.

    The best advice I can give is don't get divorced.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Dan42 wrote:

    The best advice I can give is don't get divorced.

    Or

    Don't get married/Defacto

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of grimnargrimnar
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    A wise man once said "if it flies, floats, or ….. , rent it."p

    … Not that I can talk, got married this year. Lol

    Profile photo of Kohlhagen GroupKohlhagen Group
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    Discretionary trust for future creditors, but make sure you don't have any outstanding unpaid beneficial entitlements.

    Pre-nuptial agreement for future ex-spouse? But I don't think these work much in Aus?

    Terryw or someone else have any war stories about pre-nups?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    I had a client whose mother died and she had $150k worth of UPE from the family trust. The trust had no spare cash and it was a third party executor who was duty bound to call in her debts. In the end the executor had to sue the trustee of the trust (director was the son) so that the estate could get the $150k and then distribute it to the beneficiaries – one of whom was the son. Supreme Court = very expensive.

    So be very careful about UPEs!

    In Australia pre-nups are called "binding Financial Agreements" and they can be made before during or after a marriage/defacto. They are binding if done properly – this is covered in the Family Law Act.

    Many are not done properly though. They can also be challenged if there are material changes in cicumstances which are not considered

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of bob_jonesbob_jones
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    OK, thanks for the advice.

    On a slightly different topic, but related, what are some ways of owning a property 'at arms length'?  So owning a property that you can use, like the family home, but not appear to own on the surface?

    I'm thinking a family trust that is the property owner, with myself as beneficiary?  Is that the only option?

    Bob.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    you mean controlling the property but not owning?

    1. Company with you as shareholder, or a trust as shareholder.

    2. Discretionary trust with you as one of many beneficiaries

    3. Unit trust with you as unit holder or discreionary trust as unit holder.

    4. Bare trust with you as only beneficiary

    5. spouse's name with you living there, paying for the loan etc – could be construed as a trust

    6. parent's name with you hoping to get the property via will

    7 parent's name with you hoping to get control via a testamentary trust in will

    8. SMSF fund

    9. Custodian trust as trustee for a SMSF (if bororwings).

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of bob_jonesbob_jones
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    OK, thanks.  Will research these.

    Regarding the SMSF, i was told by my accountant that you cant legally gain any benefit from a SMSF investment, aside from the obvious return on the investment itself.  So if the SMSF invested in a property, you can gain from its capital increase but not the gain from living in the dwelling.

    Bob.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Bob, I think you must have misinterpreted your accountant.

    A SMSF has the sole purpose of providing for the retirement of its members. Members cannot benefit from the fund until retirement. This means all rents and capital gains stay in the fund until you reach the stage where you can legally take income out = meet a condition of release. You cannot benefit indirectly by using the property or renting the property – unless it is business real property and rented at arms length from the fund.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of bob_jonesbob_jones
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    Hi Terry,

    Thanks for the clarification.  I guess that rules out a SMSF for my purposes.

    What about this scenario, I can service a loan for a house but I want it in someone else's name, say a family member. 

    How can i get the loan set up, but house not in my name?  So where I service the loan for someone else.  I could probably service it easily after its setup, I mean anyone can pay money in to anyone else's mortgage account if they chose to, but how could you get the loan in the first place?

    Bob

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Bob, what are you trying to acheive?

    If a person buys a house generally the bank will want that person to be able to service the loan. They would only allow only a spouse to guarantee the loan.

    With a company or trust it would be possible

    Such a transaction may not give any asset protection. If you were to get me to own the property for example, and you paid the loan then it would easily be demonstrated that I am trustee for you. Also what if I were to go bankrupt or get divorced, or die??

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Don NicolussiDon Nicolussi
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    @don
    Join Date: 2005
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    Bob – although sound asset protection is valid most forum members would not be happy discussing setting up structures with the intent of trying to hide assets from creditors. Having said that I have a feeling if any party could show that there was an intention to do this then the creditors or spouses could use "tracing" provisions to access these assets.  I would seek clarification on this.

    Don Nicolussi | Mortgage Broker - Home Loan Warehouse
    http://homeloanwarehouse.com.au
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    "I think of finance as a technology, a way of getting things done." Robert Shiller

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