All Topics / Help Needed! / Does a change in Trustee trigger CGT?

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  • Profile photo of jenny111jenny111
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    @jenny111
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    Please help.

    We have a discretionary family trust with my Mother as the trustee and appointor. The trust owns an investment property (in the trust name). If my Mother removes herself as trustee (but still hold ‘appointor’ position) and appoints me as the trustee, would the trust have to pay CGT when it later sell the property.
    Thanks.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Not usually. This would just be a change in legal ownership with the beneficial ownership remaining the same.

    But watch out for stamp duty and other hassles changing the names on title and redoing the loans.
    Consider having a company as trustee as it is easier to change control but keep ownership the same.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jenny111jenny111
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    @jenny111
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    Thanks, Terry.
    What if we just changed the trust deed, but not the name on the title? Must we legally be required to change the name on the title also?
    Regards,
    Jenny

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    If the trustee changed but you kept the title ownership as the previous trustee then that person would be holding the property as bare trustee for the new trustee.

    I can't really see a point in changing trustees unless the ownership changes too. Why do you want to change from your mum to you?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jenny111jenny111
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    @jenny111
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    What did you mean by a “bare trustee”?

    Re. your question – it is a long family story. But keep it short: the sole intention of establishing the trust many many years ago was to protect the family asset (not much of it, but a lot to us at the time – which was just 1 investment property (IP) and some shares/cash). The trust deed was originally in MY name as the trustee. Many years after the trust was set up, I didn’t want my Mother to worry about losing family assets if I were seeing someone, so I changed the trust deed to have me removed as trustee and have my Mother appointed as trustee. However, the IP which on the title was in my name ATF for the trust was still kept the same. The trust was after all the real owner of the IP irrespective of the change in trustee. With that thought, I didn’t attend to the change of title then.

    Hence, the title of the IP is still in my name, the original trustee. However, the deed of variation reflects Mum as the trustee. I now want to change the deed back to me as the trustee and clean the mess (ie: open the correct trust account in my name again, because when the trust sold the trust shares during the time my Mother’s name was the trustee, the proceeds had to be banked into the trust name. But with the trust deed showing Mum as the trustee, a new account trust account (Mum as trustee) was opened, which is still used till this date. I want to close the trust account in my Mum’s name as trustee and open another one in my name as trustee going forward. Seems to be a bit of paper works.

    Have I confused you so far? …

    Any way, I am planning to sell the IP. The sell will incur CGT on the trust and I am happy to pay CGT then. But I just wanted to check whether by changing the trust to my name as ‘trustee’ now would trigger any CGT? If yes, then I will be hit with a ‘double’ CGT. The only reason I need to change the trustee back to my name is because when the IP is sold, I believe the proceed will be made in a cheque payable to the name on the title, which is my name. But I want the money to go to the trust account and not my personal account, as this is the trust money. Therefore I will need to change the trust deed with my name to be able to open a bank account for the trust with my name as trustee.

    So I have another please, if I don’t do anything now, that is don’t bother changing the trust deed, can I instruct the solicitor to make the cheque payable to ‘the trust name’ rather than my name? If the answer is yes, then I really don’t need to worry about changing trust deed and opening new account; i.e.: things just continue on as current.

    And another question, please: was the trust supposed to pay stamp duty when I transferred my trustee position to my Mother’s back then?

    Thanks.

    Profile photo of WomeninPropMelbWomeninPropMelb
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    @womeninpropmelb
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    All sounds very complicated Jenny111 but I had a similar thing years ago- I had an IP and wanted to protect it so we set up a trust. I did not understand at the time that the title had to be transferred as well. It was to protect from my ex but all that went out the window anyway when he left- I still had to declare everything. I dont get it really. But that is Family Law.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Wow

    Firstly, trusts won't help you are all with family law type asset protection – usually. This was found out by one of Australia's leading trust experts a few years, a barrister called Dr Spry.

    A bare trust is one where the trustee has no powers. A just holds the legal title for B.

    Your situation is messy and you need legal advice. Simplest would be just to leave as is and open a new account and deposit the cheque in that or get the cheque made out to your mum.

    You also need to look at the trust deed and see if someone else is able to hold trust assets.

    Also, I hope you mum is not going to be getting the pension anytime soon as all this will affect that.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of WomeninPropMelbWomeninPropMelb
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    @womeninpropmelb
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    Thanks Terry for you amazing insight – as was pointed out in my post – was not protected by the Trust.

    Profile photo of jenny111jenny111
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    @jenny111
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    it is not really Mum's money, so I don't want the cheque to go to Mum's name. I definitely want it to go the trust name.  Do settlement/conveyancing solicitor must make out the cheque with the trustee name, or usually the trust name alone is sufficient?

    Also, making the cheque to Mum will affect her pension, which of course I don't want.

    Terry, you mentioned about Mum getting pension will be affect by 'that'.  What did you mean by 'that' – the settlement proceeds going into her name or Mum being the trustee on the trust deed (bear in mind that the IP is in my name as trustee though)?

    Thanks.

    Profile photo of jenny111jenny111
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    @jenny111
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    Hi WomeninPropMelb, Luckily it turned out I had never an ex. So the IP is still with the family. Just so unfortunately that the mess that was created and now undoing it, I am worrying that I may create even a bigger mess like double CGT as explained earlier, stamp duty, potentially affecting Mum's pension etc……

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    jenny111 wrote:
    it is not really Mum's money, so I don't want the cheque to go to Mum's name. I definitely want it to go the trust name.  Do settlement/conveyancing solicitor must make out the cheque with the trustee name, or usually the trust name alone is sufficient?

    Also, making the cheque to Mum will affect her pension, which of course I don't want.

    Terry, you mentioned about Mum getting pension will be affect by 'that'.  What did you mean by 'that' – the settlement proceeds going into her name or Mum being the trustee on the trust deed (bear in mind that the IP is in my name as trustee though)?

    Thanks.

    You mum is acting as trustee so the funds will be trust money and should be deposited in the trust bank account. The cheque should probably be made out to mum as trustee for xxx.

    Your mum will be affected by acting as trustee and any role in the trust. Centrelink will probably assess her as being the owner of the trust assets and it will affect her pension for 5 years.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jenny111jenny111
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    @jenny111
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    Thanks Terry. I understand now.
    Given that the IP is in my name as trustee, should I or could I ask the solicitor to make the cheque out to my name as Trustee for the family trust?
    About the 'bare trustee', if anything, I'd say Mum has been the bare trustee as she has no power. It was just on the paper that I made her the trustee, but the IP is still in my name.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Your mum would be a beneficiary of the trust and the appointor so it would affect pension.

    The proceeds of the sale should probably be made out to the trustee of the trust – which name is the trust bank account in? Seek legal advice first.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jenny111jenny111
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    @jenny111
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    Post Count: 90

    Uhm.. That's why I have been thinking of opening another trust account with my name as trustee. Just the nightmare of paperworks has been deterring me.
    Regards,
    jenny

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