All Topics / Finance / Found 1st IP, any advice on my idea? :-)

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  • Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
    Member
    @midsomer
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 30

    Hi all,

    I’ve recently found my first IP that ticks all the boxes i’m looking for, I am currently renting 300km away, and believe I will forgo my $7k from the FHOG? But thats not the end of the world.

    The asking price is $165k, returning $170p/w and is in a great location with several renovations to be done to it. My plan would involve the usuals = new carpets, painting, bathroom, kitchen touch up (new splashback, repaint doors, etc) .. My father and I believe it could be done for around 10-12k, given that my dad just done something similar. We believe it could yield around 210-230p/w, and be valued at around 200-220k.

    What would be the best way to structure such a set-up, so this doesn’t restrict my flexibility for future reference?

    I have a 10% deposit, which is only $16,500. Stamp duty on ANZ’s estimate is around 4k, with LMI around 2.5k

    Do I simply get a home loan with IO, do my renovations, revalue, release equity, repeat process?

    What about the name ownership? My wife isn’t working atm due to our new family, and I earn 150k+, so can i buy the house in her name and claim a negative gearing from my wage? Or is that to simple..

    Just wanting to structure things correctly prior to taking this plan to building inspections / contracts etc..

    Thanks!

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Hi Midsomer

    Firstly welcome to the forum and hope you enjoy your time with us.

    Couple of points:

    1) Buying the IP will not prohibit you from applying for the FHOG in the future. Sure you may loose your FHO stamp duty concession but dependant on which State we are referring to that might be too late anyway.

    2) Anz would have to have the worse reval policy i can think of so would assume you were using them as an example. Getting them to much more than a drive past or desk top valuation will be hard and they are very struct on their paneled valuers so need to bear that in mind. With Anz they have a very limited panel so not a matter of getting XYZ to do the valuation and then asking Anz to accept them. Doesnt work that way.

    3) Reno work. I assume you and your dad will be funding the renovation as the Bank will not advance funds on the deal. As mentioned in 2 above getting funds released post reno work isnt going to be easy especially where LMI is involved.

    4) As far as whose name to buy the property in well that is going to depend on 101 issues. Post renovation will the property be positively geared? From a quick calculation on the initial numbers it doesnt look like it but a couple more reductions in interest rates and it could be the case. I think i would be thinking slightly further ahead and consider buying in a Discretionary Family Trust. Certainly going to be better for Asset protection and flexibility when it comes to income distribution.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of xdrewxdrew
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    @xdrew
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 479

    Regardless of how good it looks … I'd say there is one aspect which it falls short on.

    Your ability to keep in touch with it.

    Unless you have a fabulous property manager (I have a couple) the distances involved will mean you'll have to book things in and schedule them precisely. From 300kms away. And if anything goes wrong (which they do) you'll end up chasing your tail to get things done by phone over a great distance.

    Thats what a good property manager CAN do. Pity about that.

    FHOG should never sway you from the option of purchasing a good deal. Whether its a good deal or not is really up to your good hard work in investigating its potential. And that wont be influenced by a FHOG decision. If you've done your homework you'll get more than a 7k deal back into your pocket.

    If you are genuinely earning over 150k you should be looking at a much greater offset for your taxable income. It doesnt have to be negatively geared .. but with that sort of income .. why not? The less you pay in tax is the more you get in your pocket. How much tax will you pay? LOTS. How much could you offset? With a quick calc you could offset at least 40k in tax with a decent invest. That doesnt mean go out and MAX that to the hilt. But it does mean you could allocate 15k into improving something with a 25k IO loan expense borrowing roughly 300k (or a similar plan). Necessary improvements .. rates .. water bills .. almost anything connected with the upkeep of a property can be offset against your taxable income for the year. So why not pursue that?

    First couple of years you pay that. After 3 to 5 years it should already be paying for itself .. should you have purchased well.

    With the way you are working things now .. Richard Taylor's number 4 above me is what you need to pursue. A discretionary Family Trust with a Corporate Trustee will satisfy your long term requirements.

    The other thing I should mention is that you are breaking my expense rule on investing. A property can be allocated 4% of its total property price per year for investing in improvements. Sure its a guideline, but thats a years realistic increase (in any market condition). Despite all the hype you hear about rapid movements .. budgetting for 4% expense per year usually is a good guide to prevent you from overdoing a renovation. So, on a 200k property valuation you could budget 8k for a single years renovation. Its really just designed to stop you pumping too much into a reno and not getting it back when you take it to sale.

    Make sure you are 100% with the state rules you purchase in. The hidden difference between what you are used to and what you get exposed to in a new state can sometimes bring unwelcome surprises.

    Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
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    @midsomer
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 30

    Thanks to both of you for your comments, i’ll try my best to answer your questions/comments regarding this plan.

    The house is in NSW.

    The ANZ home loan estimate was only on their website, for an idea of stamp duty costs, etc.. No plan on actually going with ANZ, however thanks for the tip on their lack of revaluing houses! :-)

    I would pay for the reno job myself.

    Although the house is 300km away, it is actually my home town, so i know the area back to front, and my family have a great property manager who has years of credible work with them, so as far as that is concerned i believe i am covered. I wouldn’t have even considered this venture if none of these things lined up :-)

    I do genuinely earn a good income, however only have around $22-25k in deposit, and since the house wont be lived in I will be up for stamp duty + fees etc, so i’m guessing $16-17k deposit, + 6-8k purchasing costs (estimates of course) is basically my available funds at this stage, sure I could service a loan of 7-800k, but this is not an option at this stage.

    This property seems to tick all the boxes for what I am looking for, for an entry level, easily manageable IO loan IP.

    As far as the structure goes for the purchase, I’ve looked into family trusts etc, however i’m not sure if that is what we want just yet, not to say it’s not for future reference, and i’m aware of stamp duty transfers to change later, etc.

    What about tenants in common? Is it possible to have 99-1 ownership, I could pay 100% of the loan, my wife could receive 99% of the income generated? I’ve read the ATO aren’t to concerned about the ownership of the asset, but more what the funds are used for, if i am funding the investment, is this assumption of 99-1 right?

    Thanks in advance :-)

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Yes you could certainly purchase the property with a 99/1% share on the Title as Tenants in Common and your wife would receive 99% of the deductions / income.

    Some lenders insist it is a minimum 90/10% but not the end of the world.

    Deductions are based on Title ownership and not who is on the loan.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
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    @midsomer
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 30

    Ahh ok. So what would be my best option with me working and my wife not, aside from the family trust? Thanks!

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
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    All depends if you think the property is going to be positive / negatively geared (and whether you want or need to claim any deductions) whether there is much Depreciation / Capital Allowance to claim and whether you think you will ever sell the property for a profit in the future.

    Hate to say not a quick matter of throw a dart in a dartboard needs some careful calculations depending on your answers and furture requirements.

    Thats why I would have suggested a DFT. A lot of these issues can be worked out later.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    You will need to carefully assess the effect of using a trust v individual now and in the future.

    In NSW discretionary trusts do not get the Land Tax free threshold. Also any losses will be quarantined in the trust. So using a trust may end up costing you in the short term, but hopefully long term this will pay off with reduced tax and other benefits. This is something you must take into account and assess whether it is worth using a trust now or not.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
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    @midsomer
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    Post Count: 30

    I expect the house to be neutrally geared / positive geared. I could possibly continue to re-finance to keep it negative, right?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    How could you refinance it to keep it negative???

    Would it be neutrally geared before tax?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
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    @midsomer
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    Loan repayments will be around 180-190p/w, with rent at 170. so reasonably close to being neutral, without taking other things into account.

    Once my reno’s are done, it could be refinanced to increase my loan balance from around 150k to say 180-200k, increasing my weekly payment to more then the leased amount, keeping it negatively geared?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
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    Increasing a loan won't necessarily mean you can claim more interest – what will the extra borrowed funds be used for?

    What about all the costs too. You will end up with a considerable tax loss. If this property would be held by yourself then you could get back some tax, if held by a trust without any other income then the loss cannot be used to save your personal tax. Therefore it would end up costing you more in the trust plus land tax will be payable.

    Now you have to work out if it is worth using a trust.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Refinancing wont get the property to neutrally geared as you cannot claim the interest on the additional borrowing.

    You cannot just increase the loan and expect the ATO to dish out a Tax deduction.

    This is what Terry and I have been saying you need to think carefully about what you want out of the property (are you going to keep it long term etc) what will be the position post financing etc etc and then work backwards to see what entity / structure you should buy it in.

    It is an expensive mistake to rush in and assume.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
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    @midsomer
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    I see what you are saying now. I was misunderstanding the refinancing. I would keep the house long term, no intention to sell.

    This is all hypothetical at this stage, no house inspection / building inspection has been done.

    So, if all things are as assumed (rarely?) and we decide to purchase, with a cost of say, 160k. 10% deposit + costs, say 25k, with a loan of 144k approx.

    $144k IO @ 7% is $193.84pw = Leased @ $170pw (neg $23.84pw)

    Holding costs, approx (guesstimate) $4000 = $~80pw + $23, so approx $100pw negatively geared.

    Of that approx $5000 negative geared, i’d receive around $1600 in tax deductions. which leaves $3400, which could be depreciated (estimate of coruse) .. So, does this make the property ‘theoretically’ neutrally geared? Doesn’t cost me to keep? Pending repairs of course, etc..

    Now in regards to the purchase post finance. I was hoping to purchase for around 160k, add 12-15k in work, and increase the lease to around 210-220p.w which is quite achievable.

    Since the refinancing amount does not bring up the amount of interest claimable on that particular property, then yes i’m with you now. If the new value is $200kl and refinanced to 80% of the new value, that will bring the loan balance to $160k to avoid LMI. The original balance if i buy today for example, will be the $144k. So if refinanced, the balance will increase to $160k, but that 16k is NOT deductible, unless used to fund another investment, correct?

    Once refinanced, 160k @ 7% = $215pw, leased at 220pw for this example.
    Holding costs approx $4000, my tax return of 33%, depreciation of a few thousand from renovations (is this where the 4% rule comes in between reno’s and capital expenditure).

    This should create a neutrally geared property, with rental increases, creating a positively geared property within a couple of years or so.

    No intention to sell, house is paying for itself.. Just hold and allow for growth to take its toll.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated on where to go from here. Is a DFT the best structure? Are they complicated to set-up / manage, etc..

    Are there other options for tax deductions in my name, and income to go to my wife?

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Sorry i think you are still failing to grasp the concept of investment property purchasing and financing.

    When you start off and purchase the IP you will incur LMI if the loan to valuation is greater than 80% (85% with 1 lender).
    You wont get a refund of the LMi just because the property has increased in value and the lvr fallen.

    You might find a lender offer a partial refund if you refinance away to another lender and their valuer agrees with your valuation (unlikely in the current climate as most lenders are not refunding LMI).

    The interest rate you are working on is probably a little high for a good loan so work off 6.5%.

    The refinance funds are Tax deductible full stop unless they are used to purchase another income producting asset so work off the orginal balance of $144K. (There are ways of getting the interest on the renovation funds deductible but that is a separate issue).

    In regards to your Capital Allowance / Depreciation claim this is a non cash deduction so doesnt effect you cash flow but will reduce your Taxable income. 

    Remember you mentioned you want to buy the property as TIC with your wife receiving 99% of the income / deductions.
    If she is not working earning an income then there is not much to deduct and if you really need the NG claims then you shouldnt be buying largely in her name.

    Go forward 12 months and if interest rates have fallen further and rents have increased it is likely the property will be positively geared so whose name do you want the income to go to ?

    A DFT gives you the flexibility to decide each year depending on your circumstances at the time.

    Of course as has been pointed out there are certain costs associated with setting up the correct structure but over time and depending if this is the only IP you are likely to purchase they can be insignificant compared to the long term Tax savings.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Firstly, you shouldn't be using cash as a deposit, especially if you have non deductible debt. Ideally you would borrow this deposit from a LOC secured on you rmain residence or other property.

    If you are paying $160,000 for it and borrowing the lot plus stamp duty, then say $165,000 (split up of course)

    repayments at 7% = $11,550 pa

    If you get $170 pw = $8,840 pa

    You costs will be:
    Interest $11,500
    Management, rates etc, say 25% of rent = $2210
    Total cash costs = $13,710

    So net income is $8,840 – $13,710 = -$4870 This is what it will cost you out of your pocket (approx) before tax.

    Then you have the non cash deductions such as depreciation of fittings and building, loan costs etc

    This is hard to estimate but could be around $5,000

    This would mean your taxable income is -$4870 – $5,000 = Loss of $10,000 (rounded).

    Now we can consider the different scenarios

    A. Wife

    Nil other income, so no tax payable. Her taxable income would – $10,000.
    No tax saved

    B. you

    Assume you are on $50,000 pa, add the loss from the property = new income of $40,000
    Tax saved, approx $3,000
    Total property cost to you  = $4870 – save saved of $3,000 = $1,870 loss.

    C. you and wife
    Will vary depending on ownership split

    D. Discretionary Trust

    No land tax free threshold, so an additional expense of land tax.
    Say land is worth $80,000, land tax would be 1.6% x $80,000 = $1280 pa

    So new figures would be:
    Net income of -$4870 plus – $1280 = $6,150 loss pre tax.

    Add non cash deductions of $5,000 and the new total taxable income of hte trust is $11,150
    Because the trust has no other income there is no tax saved.
    The cost of hold it in a trust is $6,150 compared to $1,870 if in your own name. $4,280 difference pa.

    As rents rise the losses will diminish and it will be positive cashflow after all expenses and deductions are taken into account. But this could take something like 12 years.

    But, then again values could double within a few years and then you would be in trouble if you had the property in your name and you were on a high rate of tax with the wife on nil.

    there are also other factors to think of such as asset protection and succession. Trusts are extremely complex too

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
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    @midsomer
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 30

    Great posts. Thanks for the deeper insight!

    Firstly, Richard I wasn’t trying to imply that LMI was refundable, i’ve never heard of this, what I was getting at was = I know i’ll have ot pay LMI for a 10% deposit if I bought the property today. If i was to refinance in say 12 months, It would make sense to refinance to 80% of the new value to avoid paying LMI a second time? If thats right.. Because to refinance to 90% like the original loan balance, the figures would be different, which would require more premiums to be paid i’d imagine?

    Terry, Thanks for the different outcomes.

    If it only cost me approx $1870 to keep in my name, a rental increase of $10 a year,would only take 3 years to become CF+, or close enough.. 5 years could be well into the CF+ territory.

    I’m not sure of the figures, but the $6150 to keep in a trust, does this not allow me to claim a tax deduction for the investment loan?

    Would that be a worthwhile wait, if i could claim 100% deductions on the investment loan, and my wife receive ‘tax free’ rental income of approx 10-11k, since starting july 1, the tax free threshold will go to 18k..

    So I could claim of the aprrox 12k interest, i’d claim 4k. my wife would receive 11k net. overall 15k?

    Would the costs of property management etc be lost in the trust, since there is no tax being paid?

    Would the trust be more beneficial if we were to won 3-5 property’s.. and my wife earned say 12 from each, so 60k per year. Sorry for my abundance of questions..

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hi Mid,

    You've lost me (and yourself?) with the last half that your post.

    If a trust owns the property then you won't be able to claim any of hte expenses including interest and depreciation and management.

    All the costs would be claimed by the 'trust'. If there is a profit then this profit would be distributed to the beneficiaries.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    No you would merely pay top up LMI (difference between what the new premium would be and the amount already paid when you purchased the property) so not going to be very much all all.

    Terry has used some general numbers for you to get an indication of the concept.

    You reduce the interest rate by 1% (and in fact with a couple of lenders you could reduce it down to high 5's if you are happy to go fixed) and the figures look a wee bit different.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of MidsomerMidsomer
    Member
    @midsomer
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 30

    Sorry Terry, it was a bit all over the place that 2nd half.

    So it appears the trust would be beneficial if there were enough income generated to pay tax? I’ve heard people say a trust is good if your earning a decent amount 70-80k+ .. So if this was the case, it would require 4-5 properties in this price range to make that happen, which could take years to accumulate.

    A loss of $6150pa for say 7 years will equate to a bit over 40k loss. Would that be worth it in the short-medium term, for the years beyond?

    To transfer a property to a trust, you have to pay stamp duty for a 2nd time, correct? if this property is around 4-5k stamp duty, in 7 years, it could be possibly 6k? add that to 5 other priced properties, and your up for around 40k in stamp duty costs. I hope i’m on the right page here..

    If i bought the property in my name, since the first 3-4 years will have some tax deductions to it in the early days, then perhaps look into the trust structures, when we add more properties to it, hence making the trust structure viable with an income of perhaps 60-70k+

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