All Topics / Overseas Deals / USA Property Management…The Real Truth Part 4

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  • Profile photo of GreaterKCHomesGreaterKCHomes
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    @greaterkchomes
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 86

    Again, I want to thank those that have contacted me with questions and comments, it is very much appreciated.

    This part will cover what I consider to be the 2nd killer to all income property, and that is Maintenance. This topic in my opinion ranks 2nd on my list of killers, not so much the repetitive need for maintenance (though that can do it as well, if the renovation was sub-par), but more so, the costs and markups involved.

    I will be the 1st to admit, I was unable to create a data sampling from those companies I interviewed for Parts 1-3. Those companies or any other company for that matter, will just not be as open in disclosing these items. I understand that, so I based this information on those clients that have transferred their properties over to me, and doing a careful examination of their financial records, as it pertained to those properties.

    I will disclose actual costs involved in all 3 mechanical fields, and then show you what they were charged for this paticular service. I will be fair and say these costs are only in Kansas City, I am not claiming that these costs are nationwide or anything like that.

    As we all probably know the 3 mechanical fields are Heating and Cooling, Electrical and Plumbing.

    1. HVAC – The cost of the average 70-80K furnace in Kansas City is $400-500. This is for a NEW furnace in box, with full manufacture's warranty. This is for an average construction grade furnace, and not the top of the line furnace, which can run as high as $700. A seasoned licensed HVAC tech can easily install a new furnace inside of 2 hours, under normal installation practices. If the furnace is in the attic (there are some that are) or other odd location, you can figure an additional $200-300 labor cost for this.  The typical labor costs for this should be no more than $250, so this brings a reasonable price of $700-900 for a furnace replacement.  I better clarify this is for a gas furnace installation, not electric.  Typically this size furnace would cover 1200 sq. ft home or smaller, with the right conditions. There are tons of factors that go into sizing a furnace for any one home, but if the renovation was professionally done, this is a very accurate estimate.

      What my clients have actually been charged by previous companies….$1700-2200 for this furnace.

     The cost of an average 2 ton Central Air unit in KC is around $600-800, again NEW in box and manufacture's warranty. These units come packaged without freon for safety reasons, nor will they include line sets, power cords or disconnect boxes. There could be additional charges based on those factors, depending on that specific items condition. The other item needed will be a A-coil, and again these are not included, but almost always need to be replaced to match the new system. The average licensed HVAC tech, can install Central Air and A-Coil in 2-4 hours, these installations typically take longer as there are more steps required. You will have to pay for the freon, the cost to the HVAC tech is around $20-30 per lb, and they resell for $40-60 per lb. Total costs involved in a standard C/A unit should be in the range of $1300-1500.

    What my clients have actually been charged by previous companies…$1800-2500 for Central Air.
    This brings the total system charges to $2000-2400, as this is the amount I typically pay to have them installed in my renovated homes.
    The total charges  that were billed to my clients $3500-4700! In my eyes there is no excuse for this, other than pure 100% greed. I have no issue with companies making money, as you have to earn a profit to stay in business, but there is a line that has been crossed here.

    Anyone, and yes anyone, can call my supplier of furnaces and central air and they will in fact confirm these prices. I am NOT a licensed HVAC technician, but I can buy a furnace or central air unit without being licensed. I don't get the best price quoted, simply because I do not buy the volume as HVAC companies would, but in all honestly that cost difference is usually no more than 10%. Because I am not licensed, I cannot buy freon as this is a regulated fuel, but my HVAC tech has showed me his invoice to confirm these prices.

    2. Electrical — This one is straight forward. In all cases the property manager should be using only licensed electricians and those companies that are in good standing with not only the state, but probably more importantly the city. This item can be a can of worms if it is not addressed during the renovation. Most licensed electricians will charge $75-125 per hour, they deserve every penny of this.
    Typical costs involved in some more popular services involved in electricity.
    Service upgrades – going from 60A to 100A, is fairly common, as alot of our homes in KC, are very old and are in fact on 60A services. I can quote what it costs my company to upgrade to 200A, as this is what I do on all my renovations. My costs including permits, inspections is exactly $1450. I honestly do not have a more recent cost for 100A service, as I have not done this paticular service in over 3 years. But I know it should be cheaper than I am paying for 200A service. The panel needed for 200A is much larger, as well as the entrance cable needed.

    What my clients have been charged for 100A service upgrade, $1800-2600. Again, crossing a major line here. The issue here is they should of never been charged anything, as these homes were supposedly renovated within the last year or 2. How do you renovate a home and NOT upgrade the wiring? Just not right!

    3. Plumbing – This expense is again straight forward and should be completed by only licensed professionals. This item is almost personal for me, as I am a master plumber with over 16 years experience. I was forced out of plumbing due to medical reasons. I still maintain my plumbing license, so I am very familiar with these costs. In this topic, I will address the most common items a plumber would be called for on a rental property.

    Water heater replacement — This one is easy, cost of a 40 Gallon Gas Water Heater is around $275, labor no more than 1 hour! Licensed plumbers typically charge the same rate as an electrician, so total costs should be in the $400-450 range.
      What I have seen charged $450-750 dollars!

    Faucet replacements (other than tub/shower faucet) – Basic Lifetime warranty faucet, $40-60, labor no more than 1 hour. Total costs should be in the $125-150 range. Most plumbers will reduce their hourly rate for this item, as it is such a simple change out. I did when I ran my company, and the plumbers I use today, do as well. Tub/Shower faucets can add an additional 1 hour labor to the charge, as the installation can be little more complicated, if there is no access or they have to make the access.
      What I have seen charged $175-225.

    Toilet replacements – Costs involved $80 for new toilet and ALL the supplies you need to install it!  Labor should be no more than 1 hour! Total costs usually under $200. Again, these are so simple to change out, plumbers will reduce their labor costs.
       What I have seen charged $250-446! Yes, that is an exact amount of $446, for a toilet.

    Drain Cleaning – What I pay for any drain to be cleaned, $95! Any drain up to 100'!
      What I have seen charged, $100-175. This one was not so outrageous as the other items, other than the $175 charge. I honestly feel if your paying under $125 for this service, it's acceptable.

    Sewer replacements – This one can hurt bad! I have one client that had to do this, but to be fair it was 2 years after he bought the home, and was more bad luck than anything else. There are alot of factors involved in replacing sewer lines in the yard. I will discuss the 1 instance I have knowledge of. This replacement is what I would consider basic replacement, less than 50', no more than 12' deep and not  having to cut the street. If I was bidding this exact replacement, it would be in the range of $2800-3300, to dig and replace and install cleanouts in the yard.
      What he was charged $4175!

    What I am showing here is other than not getting your property rented in the 1st place, this task can destroy the cash flow numbers of any property. When a property manager takes marking up a maintenance call by 20%, and insists on marking it up by at least 50%, this is where the problem is. There is no justification for this high of a markup, they are NOT doing the work themselves, they are simply making the phone call, this hardly justifies this markup.

    Due some fact checking in your market for what the going rate is. I routinely call other contractors, just to make sure my contractor's are not getting comfortable with me.

    I have been asked why I am "spilling the secret" when I am a PM myself. The straight forward answer is because it's the right thing to do. When a PM takes advantage of situations, and allows greed to dictate their business model, it leaves message boards full of the very complaints you see on here. The fact is they don't realize if they were just charging a fair price for their services, they would have more clients, and those clients would more than likely refer them. In other words, their business would be considerably better. What usually happens, is they start losing clients, so they have to "adjust" their markups to offset the loss of income, it's a never ending spiral.

    Again, I hope all of this will help each and everyone of you make the choices necessary to have a profitable experience in any market. The US has it's problems, but not all of us think like that, nor do we operate our business' like that. Take what you feel is important and use it as you see necessary. If you need any additional information, feel free to contact me.

    John

    Profile photo of emma171emma171
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    @emma171
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    Post Count: 161

    Have to step in a bit here….. I completely concur with making sure you know your bottom line costs … but you also have to be VERY wary on where/what you are buying…..and as John says, please adjust for your market ie:

    A house under 5 years old in Atlanta is likely to still be under builders warranty for systems, it will be over 2000 sq ft and have at LEAST 2 x 4 tonne or 5 tonne HVAC units… In Vegas, you are hiring a crane to roof mount your compressor…. so caveat caveat….

    Rewiring on a young house? … get it certified…. on an old house… HECK YES… but just get an electrical inspection… might save repulling lines unnecessarily.. .

    Okay – have to say a 2 ton unit won’t cut it for anything over even about 1000sq ft SFR (Rough ROUGH rule of thumb I was once quoted was to think 1 ton per 500 sq ft per ton but in Vegas err up a tad – adjust for construction, ceiling height and insulation). Mind you KC doesn’t hit 120 degrees!.. Also I am sure you are quoting ground mounted not roof mounted – or are you quoting swamp coolers..? (roof mounts you have to hire a crane) and yes, for a 4 ton you should be around $2400 – $2900 universally. But not sure how much crane hire costs in KC but Vegas you are EATING it on hire!

    Then again, sewer lines to repair for a main break shouldn’t be more than $900 with manual labour and licensed plumber with 3′ trench x 4′ deep dug for 10′ back from junction and 3/4 inch standard main water line. Someone charges a lot for digging in KC!

    A whole house to paint up to 1700 sq ft 2 tone (semi gloss white trim/neutral walls in eggshell) is only 1k for a single storey including paint. for a 2 storey contingent on sq footage you are looking at no more than $1300 – same price, interior or exterior….

    Carpet laying? Flat fee of $350 a house – whole house then choose your carpet per sq ft…. Home Depot and Lowe’s both do whole house install for $79 or $99 for carpet but the ultimate on this is that they will then go and charge 49 cents a sq ft for underlay when you can get it for $50 a bag….. so you learn that one pretty quickly. Tiling – I wouldn’t pay more than $1.10 for labour a sq ft etc.

    KC….You are being ripped off on your faucet repairs ; ) …. lol…. $24.86 for the faucet and $15 max to install…

    Issues will vary on state on permitting for water heaters but that is where the expense is in NV…. you have to pull a permit and you will eat it on that… we also do 50 gallons. Not sure what your regs are on earthquake straps either in KC.

    Your houses must be tiny or units in KC??

    I think I can safely say that the big thing is to get receipts, if project management ISN’T included in facilitation, please ask for it to be itemized as a separate amount.

    Also find out what the call out fees are ongoing from your property manager and all the misc other things.

    Ask HOW MANY UNITS IS YOUR PROPERTY MANAGER MANAGING…. ????

    BIG QUESTION.. In Australia they tend to charge 7% of gross and we expect a lot of our managers there…. 7% of probably about $600 a week… not $1000 a month… you do the maths as to how overworked and underpaid your property manager is in the States…… and how many units they would need to manage to make even 30k a year. Scary business model.

    IN CONCLUSION – CAVEAT EMPTOR AND GET QUOTES –

    It is tough because while John gets it, I get it, and you can read it – ultimately you are in “X” city with your own babies and are going to have to just do your darndest and ask for multiple quotes if you happen to be anywhere other than sitting on our door steps.

    We only do property management through the brokerage for our personal clients and it is a fixed cost forever so we aren’t overworked etc but then again, after me I also paid for my Director of Ops specifically to go through the joys of r/e and pm schools and have a lovely broker who got it and “gets it” from the Australian concept because it IS such a biggie. As a US investor for as long as I have been this was always the big gasp and why I self managed all my own properties before… so taking this on and heading down this path was knowing full well that this had to be sorted up front……. the game is to have ONE tenant stay with you for as long as possible…. that isn’t the norm for property managers who have lost track of who even live in half their properties…..

    Roll up the sleeves, Get quotes, ask questions, use the figures provided here as a rough, ROUGH yard stick of costs….. BUT IF YOU WANT ACCURATE COSTS…..

    Call 3 contractors. Log onto Home Depot – EVERY item is on there…. Look at your receipts……..

    … and thank god for forums where you CAN ask questions.

    Thanks for the post John – you have a hard job and a very very under appreciated one.

    PS Christmas presents are always nice for your tenants….

    NO IDEA WHERE IT WAS AS THIS WAS FORWARDED TO ME BUT SOMEONE MENTIONED ABOUT GAS…. Why I love Vegas so much.. I don’t have to pay for any utilities! In Alaska, I had to pay for heating oil. As mentioned, i would cry every year and pay at LEAST 5k a month for heating for my tenants who all loved to leave windows open and crank the heat.. but if you didn’t pay for it… your pipes freeze…if it snows and your tenant leaves a garage door open, you can be screwed… if it is in Vegas, they come home from work and shut the door. Taxes and Insurance. Happy to pay …. nothing more…I LOVE DESERT LANDSCAPING! I will not pay for another heating bill as long as I live. I would do inspections and shut all their windows. I would replace anti skid steps each year, put arctic melt everywhere, rewinterize, replace pipe insulation, melting, freezing, snow removal (even if it is MEANT to be tenant’s responsibility)… it is -38 degrees today in Fairbanks….. positively balmy for this time of the year. I would dread break up….. I hate mowing lawns….lol….

    Profile photo of GreaterKCHomesGreaterKCHomes
    Member
    @greaterkchomes
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 86
    emma171 wrote:
    Have to step in a bit here….. I completely concur with making sure you know your bottom line costs … but you also have to be VERY wary on where/what you are buying…..and as John says, please adjust for your market ie:

    A house under 5 years old in Atlanta is likely to still be under builders warranty for systems, it will be over 2000 sq ft and have at LEAST 2 x 4 tonne or 5 tonne HVAC units… In Vegas, you are hiring a crane to roof mount your compressor…. so caveat caveat….

    Rewiring on a young house? … get it certified…. on an old house… HECK YES… but just get an electrical inspection… might save repulling lines unnecessarily.. .

    Okay – have to say a 2 ton unit won’t cut it for anything over even about 1000sq ft SFR (Rough ROUGH rule of thumb I was once quoted was to think 1 ton per 500 sq ft per ton but in Vegas err up a tad – adjust for construction, ceiling height and insulation). Mind you KC doesn’t hit 120 degrees!.. Also I am sure you are quoting ground mounted not roof mounted – or are you quoting swamp coolers..? (roof mounts you have to hire a crane) and yes, for a 4 ton you should be around $2400 – $2900 universally. But not sure how much crane hire costs in KC but Vegas you are EATING it on hire!—

    Then again, sewer lines to repair for a main break shouldn’t be more than $900 with manual labour and licensed plumber with 3′ trench x 4′ deep dug for 10′ back from junction and 3/4 inch standard main water line. Someone charges a lot for digging in KC!

    A whole house to paint up to 1700 sq ft 2 tone (semi gloss white trim/neutral walls in eggshell) is only 1k for a single storey including paint. for a 2 storey contingent on sq footage you are looking at no more than $1300 – same price, interior or exterior….

    Carpet laying? Flat fee of $350 a house – whole house then choose your carpet per sq ft…. Home Depot and Lowe’s both do whole house install for $79 or $99 for carpet but the ultimate on this is that they will then go and charge 49 cents a sq ft for underlay when you can get it for $50 a bag….. so you learn that one pretty quickly. Tiling – I wouldn’t pay more than $1.10 for labour a sq ft etc.

    KC….You are being ripped off on your faucet repairs ; ) …. lol…. $24.86 for the faucet and $15 max to install…

    Issues will vary on state on permitting for water heaters but that is where the expense is in NV…. you have to pull a permit and you will eat it on that… we also do 50 gallons. Not sure what your regs are on earthquake straps either in KC.

    Your houses must be tiny or units in KC??

    I think I can safely say that the big thing is to get receipts, if project management ISN’T included in facilitation, please ask for it to be itemized as a separate amount.

    Also find out what the call out fees are ongoing from your property manager and all the misc other things.

    Ask HOW MANY UNITS IS YOUR PROPERTY MANAGER MANAGING…. ????

    BIG QUESTION.. In Australia they tend to charge 7% of gross and we expect a lot of our managers there…. 7% of probably about $600 a week… not $1000 a month… you do the maths as to how overworked and underpaid your property manager is in the States…… and how many units they would need to manage to make even 30k a year. Scary business model.

    IN CONCLUSION – CAVEAT EMPTOR AND GET QUOTES –

    It is tough because while John gets it, I get it, and you can read it – ultimately you are in “X” city with your own babies and are going to have to just do your darndest and ask for multiple quotes if you happen to be anywhere other than sitting on our door steps.

    We only do property management through the brokerage for our personal clients and it is a fixed cost forever so we aren’t overworked etc but then again, after me I also paid for my Director of Ops specifically to go through the joys of r/e and pm schools and have a lovely broker who got it and “gets it” from the Australian concept because it IS such a biggie. As a US investor for as long as I have been this was always the big gasp and why I self managed all my own properties before… so taking this on and heading down this path was knowing full well that this had to be sorted up front……. the game is to have ONE tenant stay with you for as long as possible…. that isn’t the norm for property managers who have lost track of who even live in half their properties…..

    Roll up the sleeves, Get quotes, ask questions, use the figures provided here as a rough, ROUGH yard stick of costs….. BUT IF YOU WANT ACCURATE COSTS…..

    Call 3 contractors. Log onto Home Depot – EVERY item is on there…. Look at your receipts……..

    … and thank god for forums where you CAN ask questions.

    Thanks for the post John – you have a hard job and a very very under appreciated one.

    PS Christmas presents are always nice for your tenants….

    NO IDEA WHERE IT WAS AS THIS WAS FORWARDED TO ME BUT SOMEONE MENTIONED ABOUT GAS…. Why I love Vegas so much.. I don’t have to pay for any utilities! In Alaska, I had to pay for heating oil. As mentioned, i would cry every year and pay at LEAST 5k a month for heating for my tenants who all loved to leave windows open and crank the heat.. but if you didn’t pay for it… your pipes freeze…if it snows and your tenant leaves a garage door open, you can be screwed… if it is in Vegas, they come home from work and shut the door. Taxes and Insurance. Happy to pay …. nothing more…I LOVE DESERT LANDSCAPING! I will not pay for another heating bill as long as I live. I would do inspections and shut all their windows. I would replace anti skid steps each year, put arctic melt everywhere, rewinterize, replace pipe insulation, melting, freezing, snow removal (even if it is MEANT to be tenant’s responsibility)… it is -38 degrees today in Fairbanks….. positively balmy for this time of the year. I would dread break up….. I hate mowing lawns….lol….

    Thank you for your reply..

    I should qualify the costs quoted in this particular posting.

    When it comes to sewer lines in KC, by local plumbing codes, the sewer lines have to get to a minimum depth of 3′ as quick as possible, due to freeze concerns. In most cases are sewer lines are around 6′ deep, this requires shoring of the walls to meet with OSHA standards. There have been instances where the ditch has collapsed and either seriously injured a plumber or even buried them alive. In homes where there are no basements, the sewer lines will be around 18″ deep, but quickly dive to 3-4′. I have actually seen a sewer line that was 16′ deep!

    In KC when it comes to Central Air systems, we calculate usage on 1 ton per 800′ feet, Most HVAC contractors will over size the home by 1/2 ton, to account for our humidity problems here. As a side note, I am very thankful we never reach 120, with our humidity we all would fry. LOL

    When it comes to water heaters we have no codes that require the usage of earthquake straps, like the west coast. We are required to pull permits to install them, over the fear of carbon monoxide, but most plumbers do not do this. The most popular size of water heater for most houses and even apartments would be 40 Gal, only when we have a home that is multiple stories or really large in square footage, will you see 50s.

    Our turnkey program rarely is used on a very large home, it makes it very expensive to heat. We have alot of these large homes in KC, but I don’t care for them as much as I do the homes in the 1200-1500 square foot range. I am managing a home like this for a new client, the home is around 2200 square feet, and we have the thermostat set at 50 degrees for the winter, and her gas bill is $400 per month.

    I agree with everything you mentioned, a PM should have receipts either readily available or accessible online through the software.
    I would caution on searching Home Depot or Lowe’s website, the prices listed there, rarely match up to what a contractor will actually pay. My contractors get a 20% discount for simply walking in to Home Depot, due to the volume of business he pushes through there. The skilled labor contractors, will almost exclusively use wholesale outlets to purchase their material, and pay anywhere from 30-45% of what the average consumer would pay at the Big Box Retailers. It’s definitely a good checking point, to keep your contractor honest.

    Wow! I wish I could find even a handyman to work for $15 per hour, let alone a plumber. When we are rehabbing a home, I typically use one certain brand of faucet. My background was of a plumber, and I learned the hard way of using cheap faucets. I will pay a premium for a faucet that I know I can get 10-15 years out of, versus paying half as much, and getting 2-3 years out of, if your lucky.

    I appreciate your compliments, it is always nice to hear from those that fully understand this business and just how challenging it can be at times. I pride myself on doing the very best possible job for my clients, and have been known to take it personally.

    Wishing Everyone A Very Profitable 2012!!!

    John

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    I had to stop reading once you said you can get a central 2 ton AC system for $600 – $800.  I do my own rehab work thru my general contractors license.  I have a straight source with AC vendors as all contractors do.  I have never heard of a central AC system (2 tons nonetheless) for $800… Goodman, RHEEM, which many believe are generic brands of TRANE, albeit great brands run $2,200 for a 2 ton system. 

    Now if you are just talking about an AC condenser (fan unit that sits outside), a 2 ton still costs about $800 in the box…NOT including labor…NOT including freion charge (7-9 pounds). 

    There is not an AC technician in the world that would do a 2 ton for $600-$800. 

    Wait wait…sorry I just re-read your post…you said the total amount is $1,300 to $1,500 for install of all-inclusive 2 ton system.  Still that is only about 60% of realistic pricing….what is the SEER rating.  We are required to use 14 SEER.  Keep in mind, property managers charge an average of 20% on top of invoice. 

    SOrry, I might have jumped the gun..I'm hungover from NYE last night!

    CheevesFinancial | Cushman & Wakefield - Commercial Property SW FL
    http://www.CommercialRealEstateVoice.com
    Email Me | Phone Me

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    Good point on seer rating. In Vegas you go cheap on faucets ironically to avoid the hard water…plastic lasts longer… Go figure. Metal is just eaten. I avoid humidity like the plague and thus avoid mould issues like the plague… No snow, moisture, damp, termites, gutters, lawns, no bushes, no foliage, no pools…. I am all for risk aversion and um pretty much no headaches….Still love concrete bunkers in the middle of the desert….. Oh and no crime…. Have had one theft in 2.5 years there….give me hot and dry…..mmmmmm yummmmmm……

    Concur on headache…. Ouch.

    Profile photo of GreaterKCHomesGreaterKCHomes
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    CheevesFinancial wrote:
    I had to stop reading once you said you can get a central 2 ton AC system for $600 – $800.  I do my own rehab work thru my general contractors license.  I have a straight source with AC vendors as all contractors do.  I have never heard of a central AC system (2 tons nonetheless) for $800… Goodman, RHEEM, which many believe are generic brands of TRANE, albeit great brands run $2,200 for a 2 ton system. 

    Now if you are just talking about an AC condenser (fan unit that sits outside), a 2 ton still costs about $800 in the box…NOT including labor…NOT including freion charge (7-9 pounds). 

    There is not an AC technician in the world that would do a 2 ton for $600-$800. 

    Wait wait…sorry I just re-read your post…you said the total amount is $1,300 to $1,500 for install of all-inclusive 2 ton system.  Still that is only about 60% of realistic pricing….what is the SEER rating.  We are required to use 14 SEER.  Keep in mind, property managers charge an average of 20% on top of invoice. 

    SOrry, I might have jumped the gun..I'm hungover from NYE last night!

    ,

    I would imagine the cost difference is probably associated with location. I have heard A/C condensers on the west coast can be as much as triple what we pay for them here, I have never confirmed that other than speaking with my clients who live there.

    I just purchased a 2 Ton A/C unit last week for one of our properties, and the invoice amount was $650, give or take.

    I have not cofirmed this to be 100% accurate, but I know the Feds have established a minimum SEER rating on new A/C units, and I believe that to be 13 SEER. I will confirm this with my HVAC tech, but I seem to remember him telling me that.

    No problems at all, I am still recovering from NYE, excellent prime rib dinner and open bar…OUCH!

    Hope everyone has a profitable 2012!

    John

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    Post Count: 585
    GreaterKCHomes wrote:
    CheevesFinancial wrote:
    I had to stop reading once you said you can get a central 2 ton AC system for $600 – $800.  I do my own rehab work thru my general contractors license.  I have a straight source with AC vendors as all contractors do.  I have never heard of a central AC system (2 tons nonetheless) for $800… Goodman, RHEEM, which many believe are generic brands of TRANE, albeit great brands run $2,200 for a 2 ton system. 

    Now if you are just talking about an AC condenser (fan unit that sits outside), a 2 ton still costs about $800 in the box…NOT including labor…NOT including freion charge (7-9 pounds). 

    There is not an AC technician in the world that would do a 2 ton for $600-$800. 

    Wait wait…sorry I just re-read your post…you said the total amount is $1,300 to $1,500 for install of all-inclusive 2 ton system.  Still that is only about 60% of realistic pricing….what is the SEER rating.  We are required to use 14 SEER.  Keep in mind, property managers charge an average of 20% on top of invoice. 

    SOrry, I might have jumped the gun..I'm hungover from NYE last night!

    , I would imagine the cost difference is probably associated with location. I have heard A/C condensers on the west coast can be as much as triple what we pay for them here, I have never confirmed that other than speaking with my clients who live there. I just purchased a 2 Ton A/C unit last week for one of our properties, and the invoice amount was $650, give or take. I have not cofirmed this to be 100% accurate, but I know the Feds have established a minimum SEER rating on new A/C units, and I believe that to be 13 SEER. I will confirm this with my HVAC tech, but I seem to remember him telling me that. No problems at all, I am still recovering from NYE, excellent prime rib dinner and open bar…OUCH!

    Hope everyone has a profitable 2012! John

    Wow here is my area just put a new unit top of the line 10 year warranty on my own personal house. Which is a 3 bed room 2 bath .No not a  typical USA castle , just conformable cost me $4500 but did not paying for 10 year warranty. Most homes it cost me $2800 to tops $4100. Sure expensive but worth paying for long term and warranty on Ac units in the south. I also don't mind paying for the top guys. NO Handy men or cheap guys when it comes to Ac units…

    John , And Cheeves..This is opportunity for us to all meet.John I know I am calling you tues about 3 pm . Cheeves working on my trip down that way. I am seeing us all create our own network , Along with Jay.

    Setting up a network where international clients can find and work with individuals with in our own net work. Where every thing check  outs and every one is one the same page…I always felt that no one should step foot in some one else s back yard. To be an expert they should be buy and sell from there own yard.  I am already meeting with a two top teams from Memphis, and possible Indianapolis. Food for thought..

    No hang over here was in bed by 930 that night..woke up to see the ball drop then a few calls, and emails then back to bed..

    Lets speak tues all of us..

    alex
    [email protected]

    email for best time and number  that we maybe we can all just conference call…

    Profile photo of GreaterKCHomesGreaterKCHomes
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    @greaterkchomes
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    Post Count: 86
    Alex SC wrote:
    GreaterKCHomes wrote:
    CheevesFinancial wrote:
    I had to stop reading once you said you can get a central 2 ton AC system for $600 – $800.  I do my own rehab work thru my general contractors license.  I have a straight source with AC vendors as all contractors do.  I have never heard of a central AC system (2 tons nonetheless) for $800… Goodman, RHEEM, which many believe are generic brands of TRANE, albeit great brands run $2,200 for a 2 ton system. 

    Now if you are just talking about an AC condenser (fan unit that sits outside), a 2 ton still costs about $800 in the box…NOT including labor…NOT including freion charge (7-9 pounds). 

    There is not an AC technician in the world that would do a 2 ton for $600-$800. 

    Wait wait…sorry I just re-read your post…you said the total amount is $1,300 to $1,500 for install of all-inclusive 2 ton system.  Still that is only about 60% of realistic pricing….what is the SEER rating.  We are required to use 14 SEER.  Keep in mind, property managers charge an average of 20% on top of invoice. 

    SOrry, I might have jumped the gun..I'm hungover from NYE last night!

    , I would imagine the cost difference is probably associated with location. I have heard A/C condensers on the west coast can be as much as triple what we pay for them here, I have never confirmed that other than speaking with my clients who live there. I just purchased a 2 Ton A/C unit last week for one of our properties, and the invoice amount was $650, give or take. I have not cofirmed this to be 100% accurate, but I know the Feds have established a minimum SEER rating on new A/C units, and I believe that to be 13 SEER. I will confirm this with my HVAC tech, but I seem to remember him telling me that. No problems at all, I am still recovering from NYE, excellent prime rib dinner and open bar…OUCH!

    Hope everyone has a profitable 2012! John

    Wow here is my area just put a new unit top of the line 10 year warranty on my own personal house. Which is a 3 bed room 2 bath .No not a  typical USA castle , just conformable cost me $4500 but did not paying for 10 year warranty. Most homes it cost me $2800 to tops $4100. Sure expensive but worth paying for long term and warranty on Ac units in the south. I also don't mind paying for the top guys. NO Handy men or cheap guys when it comes to Ac units…

    John , And Cheeves..This is opportunity for us to all meet.John I know I am calling you tues about 3 pm . Cheeves working on my trip down that way. I am seeing us all create our own network , Along with Jay.

    Setting up a network where international clients can find and work with individuals with in our own net work. Where every thing check  outs and every one is one the same page…I always felt that no one should step foot in some one else s back yard. To be an expert they should be buy and sell from there own yard.  I am already meeting with a two top teams from Memphis, and possible Indianapolis. Food for thought..

    No hang over here was in bed by 930 that night..woke up to see the ball drop then a few calls, and emails then back to bed..

    Lets speak tues all of us..

    alex
    [email protected]

    email for best time and number  that we maybe we can all just conference call…

    Alex,

    Looking forward to our phone call on Tuesday.

    Would be curious on what the going labor rate for licensed HVAC techs in your area?

    We just put in a complete HVAC system, with a 3 ton A/C and 15KW electric air handler, pulled permits and all of that, and my bill was $2975. Just curious on how much of a price difference everyone pays for basically the same equipment. I have not put in a gas system in over a year, other than replacements, but typically electric air handlers are around 20-30% more than gas, as we have to purchase the heat strips as well.

    John

    Profile photo of jayhinrichsjayhinrichs
    Participant
    @jayhinrichs
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 1,177

    Sewer is one of the biggest problems we encounter in older homes with tree lined streets and yards.

    And since every home in our program I own,  Its the first thing I do.

    If there is not a PVC riser indicating new to newer sewer line. I put in a new sewer line from the st. to the house as well as repipe the whole house in pex. Sewer line runs 1500 to 3k… Although here in Portland OR you will pay double to triple.

    Then unless the heating and airconiditoning is new or next to knew and because I own and have to maintain these I replace with new and the 10 year warrenties and I always use the right tech's for these jobs. Like Alex rather pay a little more and get it done right and if there is a problem the tech comes back on their nickel.

    Same with the Roof if its over ten years old I reroof.

    the real issues I dealt with as a hard money lender to literally 1000 plus clients was their turn key operator cutting corners and spending far too much money on cosmetics and not enough on the mechanical and critical systems.

    The turn key guy is selling a pretty looking house. Some one who is building rental portfolio is looking for Function and limiting service calls… As KC says service calls kill you. 

    And PM business is entitled to mark up on service calls other wise pretty tough to stay in business.

    Profile photo of GreaterKCHomesGreaterKCHomes
    Member
    @greaterkchomes
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 86
    jayhinrichs wrote:
    Sewer is one of the biggest problems we encounter in older homes with tree lined streets and yards.

    And since every home in our program I own,  Its the first thing I do.

    If there is not a PVC riser indicating new to newer sewer line. I put in a new sewer line from the st. to the house as well as repipe the whole house in pex. Sewer line runs 1500 to 3k… Although here in Portland OR you will pay double to triple.

    Then unless the heating and airconiditoning is new or next to knew and because I own and have to maintain these I replace with new and the 10 year warrenties and I always use the right tech's for these jobs. Like Alex rather pay a little more and get it done right and if there is a problem the tech comes back on their nickel.

    Same with the Roof if its over ten years old I reroof.

    the real issues I dealt with as a hard money lender to literally 1000 plus clients was their turn key operator cutting corners and spending far too much money on cosmetics and not enough on the mechanical and critical systems.

    The turn key guy is selling a pretty looking house. Some one who is building rental portfolio is looking for Function and limiting service calls… As KC says service calls kill you. 

    And PM business is entitled to mark up on service calls other wise pretty tough to stay in business.

    Jay,

    Sounds like you have some of the same issues in Oregon as we do in KC, when it comes to sewer lines. We have a huge tree root issue, and you constantly have to be on the lookout for signs of trouble.

    I agree with you, that most turn key operators concentrate on the cosmetics, and don’t pay enough attention to the core of the property, does the end consumer absolutely no good. I won’t mention any names, but I once visited a “turn key” home, from a competitor, and saw their house. It looked amazing, but I questioned the furnace not being replaced, as it had the original installation sticker dated in 1959. Their response to me was, ” we had our technician check it out, and everything is fine with it”. I was a bit taken back with this, as they were selling this property for almost 45K!

    I don’t have an issue with PM’s taking a markup, its the amount of the markup I have a problem with. I have seen 100% markups, and even some a little more than that. That’s when it becomes nothing more than taking advantage of a client.

    John

    Profile photo of lawsjslawsjs
    Participant
    @lawsjs
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 252

    We used to have a constant tree root problem with one drain in Australia. One plumber eventually came up with the cure. He put lime around the pipe and it stopped the roots forever.

    I don't have an issue with PM's taking a markup, its the amount of the markup I have a problem with. I have seen 100% markups, and even some a little more than that. That's when it becomes nothing more than taking advantage of a client.

    And in some cases 100% is not enough. Totally agree with you – fantastic to see some people doing the 'right' thing by everyone. US returns are so much better than Aus ever will be that I am certain you will get lots of repeats once poeple are comfortable. Trick will be not to fight each other and do the right thing…

    Best of luck to all for the new year.

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