All Topics / Help Needed! / Either I sell or I find a way to make money out of this thing…

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  • Profile photo of ArchnicArchnic
    Participant
    @archnic
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 11

    Hi all.

    I have a house in Maryborough, Qld. I've owned it for approx 5 years. Long story short I'm losing about $10k a year on it (mainly interest charges) and I've decided I either have to sell it or do something to make it make money. Any advice, ideas or thoughts appreciated.

    I bought it for $230k, I owe $240k on it and to sell it in today's market I'd have to drop it to approx $200k (so lose about $40k). I don't really want to lose money on this thing, but if I hold it for another 4 years losing $10k per year… well you get the idea.

    I'll give as many details as I can, all opinions welcome. Any ideas that actually help make this a success get a handwritten card at christmas :)

    • Address: 299 Pallas St, Maryborough
    • pictures: http://ebay.realestate.com.au/property-house-qld-maryborough-106791722 (currently on the market but absolutely no bites at the price listed)
    • Current rent: Good tenant at $240 per week
    • House Details: solid 3 bedroom house with rumpus built on the back. Polished timber floors, weatherboard.
    • Land details: 1305m2, huge deep block capable of battleaxing.
    • Area details: on Hervey Bay side of Maryborough. Hervey Bay is a seaside town. Prices there are $350-$550 for an equivallent house on smaller block. I originally bought because I thought prices in Maryborough would be driven up by Hervey Bay but it hasn't happened. Learned my lesson there. I can't see the house going up in value any time soon.
    • Other thoughts: I've thought about subdividing and building units but my agent tells me the house is worth more on a large block. If I divided in two, I might get $180k for each house, by the time I'd built that second house I don't think it would work?

    Anyway, as said above if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them. If I can't make something happen soon I guess the smart thing to do is cut my losses and sell. Speaking of which if you think selling is the way to go please let me know, at least I would know I'm doing the right thing.

    Thanks in advance for the advice…

    Nick

    Profile photo of Paul DobsonPaul Dobson
    Participant
    @pauldobson
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 1,196

    Hi Nick

    One way to turn your property from negative to positive cash flow is to use what we call our negative2positive process.  In short it involves selling your property with vendor finance.  Using this technique you sell the property for a premium price and generate excellent monthly positive cash flow, while the new buyers are paying it off.

    All strategies have their pluses and minuses.  With vendor finance you do lock-in, i.e. fix, your capital gain and generate positive cash flow but ultimately you have disposed of the asset.  The way we overcome this minus, is to buy another one and do it again.

    More information on the negative2positive idea is available at  http://www.negative2positive.com.au

    Cheers,  Paul

    Paul Dobson | Vendor Finance Institute
    http://www.vendorfinanceinstitute.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    An alternative way to finance your home.

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    I don't understand how you are losing $10k a year on it if it is tenanted.  Are you declaring the loan interest and all other associated costs on your tax return?  I am presuming you work and thus pay tax, so you ought to be clawing some of this tax money back from your property losses.  That would significantly reduce the loss.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    are you on a Principal and Interest loan or interest only?

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of weathjessweathjess
    Participant
    @weathjess
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 18

    Hi,

    Looking at it on the internet it appears to be really close to both the hospital and the airport. One method I use is I have a house in regional Victoria that is right next door to the hospital. I rent it out on short term rentals (usually between 2-6months at a time). I pay all of the expenses – electricity etc and they put their staff in it – eg. hospitals bring locum doctors in for 3 months – need something fully furnished without the hassle of connecting the power etc. Because of all of this I charge a highly inflated price – I charge $370 a week – when if I rented it out to a normal tenant I would only get about $200-$220 for the house. It is a bit of work because I can't guarantee a tenant all the time, however, I have had the house for 12 months and it has only been vacant for 1 week. But the upshot is that I have positive cash flow.

    cheers,

    Jessie

    Profile photo of DerekDerek
    Member
    @derek
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 3,544

    Hi Jac,

    At 7% interest only the annual loss is around $9000 – $9500 depending upon costs for property management and rates. I did allow $2000 for rates and 10% of gross rent for property management costs.

    To Nick,

    If you are a wage earner you can cushion the shortfall through the use of depreciation reports (if relevant) and/or PAYG Income Tax Variation. If you are on top marginal rate you can cushion the shortfall to by around $4500/annum. The amount of tax saved will diminish as your taxable income reduces to such an extent that it you are in the $6K – $37K taxable income bracket your tax savings reduce to $1500.

    Either way it is possible to use a tax variation so that any tax saved is returned to you in your fortnightly/monthly pay period rather than at the end of the financial year.

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    Hi Derek

    Yup I knew the interest charges would be that much, but the property is rented, so that would assist greatly in paying that interest bill.  I just couldn't work out how the loss had amounted to $10k…

    jac

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of DerekDerek
    Member
    @derek
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 3,544

    Hi Jac,

    100% rented at $240/week = $12480

    Less
    Notional 10% property management costs = $1248
    Notional rates allowance                                 = $2000
    Notional insurance allowance                         = $1000
    Interest bill @7%                                                = $16800
    Notional Contingencies Allowance                = $1000

    Shortfall                                                                = – $9568

    Nick's $10K shortfall isn't far off the mark. Gross rent return currently stands at 5.2%

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    But add in non cash deductions such as depreciation and the tax he saves by negative gearing and the true cost may be much lower.
    Say $3000 depreciation and borrowing costs, loss = $12,500
    Tax back at 30% = $4,000

    Cost is about $5,568 pa

    Still painful tho

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of ArchnicArchnic
    Participant
    @archnic
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 11

    Thanks all for your input.

    Paul & Jessie your ideas both have merit I'll look into them – thanks.
    Derek I'm sure my accountant is looking at depreciation but i'll check just to make sure, thanks there too.

    To answer the other questions:
    Income = 60-70k last financial year. I get my tax done by an accountant, I'm told that my tax savings are about $1300 (approx) but not large enough for me to think that negative gearing is the way to go.
    My $10k loss was an estimate, these are the actual figures.

    Income
    Rent:                      $12,377

    Expense:
    Interest Charges:     $16,758      (Loan amount = $238k, interest rate = 7.3% P&I, avg monthly interest = $1450)
    Taxes                     $4000 approx (from memory)
    Insurance                $1000 approx (from memory)
    Rental Manager  
        pest                       $66
        electrical                $155
        general repairs        $621
        lease fees              $264
        GST                       $104
        management fees   $970
        postage                  $55

    total expenses            $23,994

    Difference                  -$11,617

    Cheers all – thanks for the ideas so far – keep them coming. Any other ideas?

    Nick

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Your accountant cannot estimate depreciation. Have you had a QS in and done a report?

    Also any borrowing expenses or travel expenses? (includes driving to the accounant). Phone calls? interest ?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    Further to what Terry mentioned, "QS" means Quantity Surveyor.  This is the individual that will complete the depreciation report.  In some cases you can do it over the phone or online.  Google "Depreciation Schedule" and ring a few companies, explain the type of property, the age of the building itself, the age of the stuff in it (eg carpets, oven etc etc) its age, ask them to tell you if it is worthwhile doing the schedule or not.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of JackFlashJackFlash
    Member
    @jackflash
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 66

    Pretty simple really. You have an asset with an operating loss as well as a likely depreciating loss.

    Fact: operating loss… suggestions to date will only reduce or minimise this loss at best. I see no plan nor know of one that will move this asset into an operating profit.

    Fact: over 5 years the property has depreciated and you owe more than its worth.

    Fact: the global financial situation is precarious and almost inevitably we are heading to GFC2 but with more serious downside. To hold onto a loss making asset in the hope that things may turn around is financial suicide.

    Common sense would tell any investor regardless of the type of investment that one must cut and run. Better to lose a little than a lot.

    The negative2positive idea scares the crap out of me. You have no equity in this property so where’s the vendor finance coming from. You’re a property investor not a financier. Anyone who can’t get a regular bank mortgage and who needs vendor finance is high risk obviously. To me that’s just jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Paul Dobson may mean well but his suggestion is highly subjective.

    Think with your head and not your heart. Bite the bullet take the loss and move on.

    Jack

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
    Participant
    @jamie-m
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 5,069

    Hi Nick

    Some ideas to improve cashflow if you decide to keep it.

     – Get the depreciation schedule done
     – Set the loan up as interest only
     – Look at refinancing to a more competitive loan (assess the costs involved before doing so)
     – Are you getting market rent? Is their anything that you can do cosmetically to approve the yield? Have you considered allowing pets and increasing the rent accordingly?
     
    Are there any factors within the area that would see it achieve growth in the long-term?

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of ArchnicArchnic
    Participant
    @archnic
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 11

    Thanks Terry & JacM – great advice I'll look into that. I tend to just leave things to my accountant (bad I know) and wasn't aware they weren't doing anything there.
    JackFlash – valid and sensible points too. The fact that I've posted online is an acknowledgement that things can't continue as they are, though I believe in examining all options though before making a decision. I suspect like you suggest that negative2positive might not be right for my current financial position but I'll definately check it out regardless before I dismiss it.

    I'll report back and let everyone know what happens, in the meantime more ideas are always welcome keep them coming :)

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    If it turns out it is worthwhile to get a depreciation schedule done, you'd have to hand the completed schedule to your accountant for inclusion in your tax return.  I have a feeling you can claim a year or two back on this as well, but don't quote me on that.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Previous years tax returns can be amended if you have forgotten to claim depreciation. But max you can go back is 4 years, generally

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    Thanks for the clarification Terry!

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of ArchnicArchnic
    Participant
    @archnic
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 11

    Brilliant thanks Terry that's my first phone call at 9am tomorrow…

    Profile photo of hbbehrendorffhbbehrendorff
    Member
    @hbbehrendorff
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 293

    I own property in Hervey bay, Not much happening in the Fraser coast is there ?  That's why I recently left the area and moved to emerald.

    I would not expect to see much growth in property prices around Maryborough for a fair while.

     

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