All Topics / Help Needed! / To Buy Or Not To Buy

Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
  • Profile photo of se7ense7en
    Participant
    @se7en
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 54

    Hey Guys,

    I have been working very hard over the last year to put myself in a position where I can buy my first IP and I have finally got my deposit and my bank loan approved however now there seems to be sooo much uncertainty in the property market.
     
    Some are saying its a buyers market, others are saying its very risky with the economic state of Europe, USA and China. I've even heard that the only reason why we are hearing that it is a buyers market is because the government dont want people to stop spending but really it is very dangerous.. is this true? Does anyone have a valid answere to this which is backed by evidence or is it just one word against another…is the bubble real because if it is it seems like it could be bursting soon.. I may be paranoid but I'm starting to think the bubble isnt a myth.. it does make sense ..what goes up must come down..especially with our excess dept. Should I buy or hold??????? 

    Cheers
    Adam

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    Hi Adam

    Only you can decide whether you should buy right now or not.

    Here are a few things I personally think:

    If you are in it for a long-hold, it doesn't make much difference anyway.
    There is not going to be a catastrophe whereby suddenly everyone is going to live on the street and leave the houses empty.
    When everyone is afraid to buy, there can be some great bargains to be had, because the sellers are not blessed with lots of buyers competing with each other.  You could negotiate yourself a great deal.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of dcwwooddcwwood
    Member
    @dcwwood
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 27

    Go for it Adam – well, once you've done the numbers, researched like a champion and done several visits and spoken to a least 15 different agents/suppliers/builders/locals. There is plenty of good opportunities out there, you’ve just gotta get out there and look at all the options!!

    Profile photo of DerekDerek
    Member
    @derek
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 3,544

    Hi Adam,

    Congratulations on getting to step 1 – pre-approved and deposit saved. This is a big feat in itself.

    As to whether or not to buy – the answer to that question really boils down to your plans, timelines and personal circumstances.

    For every statistic supporting the 'buyers market' theory there will be a statistic supporting 'potential bubble' theory. For what it is worth some of the disparity in positions has a lot to do with the two speed nature of our economy at the moment. Indicies for non-mining related industries such as retail etc are at all time lows, whereas those indicies in mining related industries are at all times highs.

    On a related matter the imposition of the responsible lending legislation has had a marked effect on non-bank lenders. This along with the GFC and company and government responses to the GFC now means that some lending products up to GFC are no longer available. Banks & mortgage insurers are a little more circumspect with lending policies today. Having said that I also believe some of the big four are starting to relax some conditions slightly in an effort to increase their share of loans. Not that this should be seen to be a signal or even more relaxed lending to come. ASIC and legislation have put an end to that.

    I am sure some of these people are now struggling due to excess borrowings through lax lo-doc and no-doc policies in existence at the time. Combine this with a high across the boards LVR and there is little wriggle room left for these people.

    Similarly the Government's FHOG Boost scheme has created a number of households (read FHO who took advantage of the boost) who are under mortgage stress. These people largely did not have to save a deposit of any substance and were qualified when interest rates were as low as they have been for eons. Even with the bank's serviceability margins the rate used to determine serviceability was awfully low. Given these people had minimal deposit they have no behind them and any surplus cash they had on previous calculations is being consumed to meet loan obligations.   

    Now all of this sounds like doom and gloom but rememember for every 'bad' signal there is an equally positive one.

    Yes stock on the national property list is at high figures – certainly here in Perth current stock levels are at higher than average levels. RP Data recently reported a slight decline in stock available levels and a reduction in vendor discounting to effect a sale. So maybe the corner has been turned here in WA. Housing Industry and other luminary organisations like ANZ Bank etc continue to report a significant underlying shortage of property stocks and have projected for this underlying shortfall to continue.

    Also countering the doom and gloom merchants is our national unemployment figures are below 5% and in WA just over 4% – now when I studied economics many years ago 5% was considered full employment. So, from an employment position, we are in a great position. About 3 months ago statisticians also reported an increase in the number of people employed full-time whereas up until then the unemployment figures were a little fuzzy as people took on fractional work to retain some salary in preference to being laid off.

    Some of the dooms day merchants are making relationships between house prices and income levels. Both the ANZ and CBA banks and our very own RBA have largely debunked this relationship as the study underpining it is reportedly very simplistic. 

    The outlook for short term growth in many markets is questionnable but investors with long time frames will go OK – you may need to consider something different to simply buying an off the shelf property – maybe consider something different. I believe Steve refers to these properties as those having a twist. 

    Be aware we (the general we) seem to pay greater credence to merchants of doom than we do of others, equally qualified, often citing vested interests.

    Ulltimately – indviduals need to make up their own minds, check your goals timelines etc and make a decision on what suits you.

     

    Profile photo of lifestylezlifestylez
    Participant
    @lifestylez
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 61

    My first property I bought at the peak of the boom at the end of 2003 and didn't move in value for the next 2 years.

    The month after I bought, interest rates went up for the first time in over a year.  Just my luck!

    I ended up holding that property for 6 years and got a total capital gain of 60% which is pretty good.

    My point here is if I had of let economic factors stop me from buying, I may never have got started and never experienced a good performing asset.

    Personally, if I had money to invest right now I would be getting into some of those cheaper markets such as Brisbane or Adelaide.  Property is a slow game, so don't expect to start seeing results for at least a year or two after you've purchased and even then you must be prepared that your asset may have dropped in value in that initial period, so don't get scared and sell!

    Darren.

    Profile photo of bm17bm17
    Participant
    @bm17
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 47
    lifestylez wrote:
    My point here is if I had of let economic factors stop me from buying, I may never have got started and never experienced a good performing asset.

    Would totally agree with this comment. There will always be someone giving you are reason not to do it (property bubble, interest rates are rising, the tenants will trash the place etc. etc.) but if you complete your due diligence and the numbers stack up, I would say go for it.
    I have just recently bought a new IP (settles in Sep) and was able to get it at a discount of about $20k because everyone else was sitting back just waiting.

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
    Participant
    @jamie-m
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 5,069

    Hi Adam

    Do you plan on holding onto this IP for the long-term? Property will have its ups and downs – personally, I know I'd rather be buying while the market is on the decline rather than an upswing.

    Ultimately the decision to purchase or not is yours – however, the doom and gloom of the property bubble bursting has been around for as long as I can remember.

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of helianthusddhelianthusdd
    Member
    @helianthusdd
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 2
    lifestylez wrote:
    My point here is if I had of let economic factors stop me from buying, I may never have got started and never experienced a good performing asset.

    Exactly! Completely I agree with you! The best ways to become better is start doing it.
    In my opinion, you should buy.

    Profile photo of circle3circle3
    Participant
    @circle3
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 8

    Adam,

    Now that you are cashed up. Take your time to get it right. Write down your plan and describe exactly what you are looking for. Put it into a spreadsheet and know exactly what the rewards are given the price you pay.

    If you are worried about future growth, look at the suburbs track record over last 20 years. How long did it take for median price to double? Working backwards from todays median price, when was it worth half as much? eg house today is worth 300K and 10 years ago it was 150K it took 10years to double in price or 7.2% (compounded) annual growth. Be conservative in your growth estimates and you may be surprised if a boom comes. You will be able to sleep at night by not being wild in your estimations.

    Now is as good a time as any to start. I am in the process of settling (in next 2 weeks) on 2 properties that I bought below market ( up to 40% below Assessed Value) that have a cash on cash return better than 10% and are showing 40%+ annual returns with equity growth and cash. Time invested to find them? A few months to locate the area, and about 100 hours of research on the ground.

    The key is sticking to your guns, and listening to your head and your spreadsheet. If you are lucky you will find an agent that will see you as long term investor and show you what you are looking for. If by the 3rd property they are off course give them 1 more chance after a warning. If they are not spot on, give them the flick and move on. They are wasting your time.

    Good hunting. You don't need much luck as you have plan and a system.

    Cheers.

    C3

    Profile photo of sail_dlsail_dl
    Member
    @sail_dl
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 2

    We are unfortunately living in  a controversial world and that always allows media business to survive. Every single minute, there will be someone regretting that they haven't got on the bus earlier! So just get on the bus Adam!

    Profile photo of CatalystCatalyst
    Participant
    @catalyst
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 1,404
    ajago5 wrote:
    I may be paranoid but I'm starting to think the bubble isnt a myth.. it does make sense ..what goes up must come down..especially with our excess dept.

    Really? While property does not go up in a steady stream it goes up over time.

    It is VERY difficult to time the market. As they say "It's not timing the market, It's time in the market".
    While it is nice to buy at the start of an upswing (or just before it happens) we can't always predict it. 

    In 2008 everyone said I was crazy to buy but I made a nice CG since then. There are always doomers and gloomers.
    There are always reasons not to buy but serious investors will always find somewhere to buy if they want to.

    Personally I'm not a buy and hope it goes up investor. I make my money on the way in. If it gets more CG on top then that's great.

    Profile photo of se7ense7en
    Participant
    @se7en
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 54

    Thank guys!! This has been a great help!

    You have set me on track and I better understand my goals now. One thing which I haven't done and which a lot of you touched on was setting up a spreadsheet. I understand the importance of this and it has been something that I have always been meaning to do, the thing is I'm a bit of a perfectionist and although this can be good it often takes a long time to get started. Does anyone have any recourses for gaining information on setting up a spreadsheet or am I better off purchasing some software??

    I like the benefit of being able to customise a spreadsheet to fit my needs but at the same time I’m not sure if I will be able to do everything in a spreadsheet as I will with software?

    Thanks again

    Profile photo of MrDarcyMrDarcy
    Member
    @mrdarcy
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 21

    Adam

    Another point to add as bumped on above is that the doom and gloom can be 'insured' against as well (in a want for a better term..)

    Say YOU would consider the market dropping 10% then that just becomes part of your purchase strategy (one above of 40% would take a pretty massive bubble burst!) Just allow for it on the way in.. if it doesnt happen you have made 10% upfront for Eg.. 

    Always be aware, go into it with eyes and ears open and you can also use the doom as leverage on getting a better deal..

    You will learn more from the minute you begin and generally every time after that something will be different..

    last point, Im assuming your young? therefore your main advantage is time, so buy right and just sit tight..

    Soon enough it will bear fruit or at least be neutral..

    A solid rental should sail through all the uncertainty..

    Good luck

    Darcy

    Profile photo of se7ense7en
    Participant
    @se7en
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 54

    Thanks Darcy

    You are right I am only 23 but I know a lot of people start earlier so I am quite eager to get started. your advice has been great and aligns perfectly with what I am studying at the moment (property and construction management) .. I guess the old saying really is spot on “time in the market, not timing the market”. I understand exactly what you mean when you say insuring against the doom, I will make sure I put in this contingency.

    Cheers.

    Profile photo of stefalexstefalex
    Member
    @stefalex
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 7

    Latest Residex Newsletter provides a good overview of the current market:

    http://blog.residex.com.au/2011/08/18/from-the-ceo-3/#more-1173=news08_11b

    Profile photo of rhino101rhino101
    Participant
    @rhino101
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 31

    I read a book a while back which was the biography of one of the richest men in Japan. His start happened when he hunkered down in his underground bunker as Hiroshima was being bombed. As soon as he could he started buying land and then held it and waited for stability which eventually came and he made squillions…….There is always the nervousness that accompanies having the balls to buy when everyone else is selling……….but i think his story absolutely demonstrates what can be achieved if you do your research then back yourself. It doesn't get more dire for the outlook of a property market than to have your country being bombed by atomic bombs and about to lose a world war.   This is pretty much Warren Buffett's strategy too and look where it got him.

    If you do nothing you definitely gain nothing, if you do something and it fails, well you're no worse off…….but if it doesn't fail…..who knows….

    Profile photo of SandraLSandraL
    Member
    @sandral
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 45

    Hi Ajago5,
    As pointed out above, you can find data that the Australian property market is overvalued or undervalued, depending on what you look at. You are right to be cautious and not blindly jump in. But the obvious risks associated with such a huge investment in uncertain economic times like these can be mitigated.

    I would suggest the following:
    – Go for a lower LVR than what you can get. This probably means looking at a lower priced property than what you can afford, but it will help if properties do indeed come down 10% or 20% (which I personally don't believe they will)
    – In your calculations, factor in  holding the property for the long-term (at least 10, better 20 or more years)
    – Look for a positively geared property. This is obviously harder, but can be done through renovations, etc. That way even if the property falls in value, you are at least making a positive return 
    – Look for areas with high rental demand, that is likely to continue in the future 

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