All Topics / Help Needed! / Transfer of Land – Is it really that easy to transfer land?

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  • Profile photo of propertyboypropertyboy
    Participant
    @propertyboy
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 232

    Hi guys, I really would appreciate some help on this issue.

    1. My father (John) and his brother (Bill) purchased a block of land 27 years ago in 1984. At this stage they were both Estate Fee Simple joint proprietors

    2. In 1986 they subdivided the land into two lots. At this stage they were again, both Estate Fee Simple joint proprietors of the two lots.

    3. In 1989, lot 2, was transferred from my dad (John) and his brother (Bill) to their other brother (Fred) and his wife. Fred and his wife were now Estate Fee Simple Joint proprietors. I did a historical statement search and it shows this was registered on 20/09/1989. What is interesting is that only Fred came to my dad and asked him to sign the Transfer of Land form. He signed his section, however they subsequently went off and signed their bits and got someone to witness it. However, my dad’s signature was never witnessed and he was not present. The reason for this transfer was that it was agreed that Fred would pay the price of the property to my dad and Bill out of good faith. However, Bill never compensated my father and gave him a dodgy cheque which bounced. Let’s forget all that and assume it was just a "gift"

    4. This is were it becomes interesting. On 16/03/1990 it appears that a transfer occurred where my dad’s interest in the other lot was transferred to Bill's wife. My dad swears that he never signed the document. I did a historical search and instrument search which shows the documents and it appears that the signature has been signed fraudulently. Furthermore, both signatures have been witnessed by Fred (the other brother) who had the other lot transferred to his name 6 months prior to this transfer.

    Doesn't the witness have to be an independent person? How could the other brother be a witness especially given that the other lot had been transferred to his name 6 months ago? Given that this was done over 25 years ago do we still have a case? My dad only recently found out about this. How could a property be transferred to someone else’s name so easily?

    Is there anyone who can help?  

    Profile photo of ALF1ALF1
    Participant
    @alf1
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 237

    Hi PropertyBoy.

    What you have posted has a few legal and conveyance 'curve balls'. Please feel free to drop me an email (below) so I can look to helping you further. Also, it would help to know which State or Territory this all occurred in. Your enquiry will of course be privileged and your privacy protected.
    Kind regards,

    Profile photo of propertyboypropertyboy
    Participant
    @propertyboy
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 232

    I am in Victoria

    Profile photo of propertyboypropertyboy
    Participant
    @propertyboy
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 232

    It cant be right that it is so easy to transfer property.

    All you have to do is fill out the T1 form and get the owner to sign and bang its been transferred.

    Why is it so easy?

    It just means its so easy for vulnerable trusting family members to sign documents if someone they trust brings them form to sign.

     Is it this easy to transfer a property, just a signature?

    Profile photo of propertyboypropertyboy
    Participant
    @propertyboy
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 232

    I want to pursue this.

    Can anyone recommend a property lawyer in Melbourne?

    I really want to speak to someone and see if I have a case? They might say there is nothing I can do. Do lawyers usually charge to hear what a client needs? I want to sit down explain the situation and see if the lawyer thinks they can do something, but I dont want to pay them a fee just for telling them the story. I am more than happy to pay once we process with the claim (assuming they think legally there is something that can be done).

    In the meantime, I might put a caveat on the property.

    Can I put a caveat on the property saying "title was illegally transferred"? Are there any limits on what you can say on the caveat? If not, whats stopping randoms from just putting caveats on titles and being pests?

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    If Fred has been the legal owner since 1989, then wouldn't the council rates have been adressed to him?  And if so, how come your dad hasn't noticed he hasn't been sent a council rates bill for more than 20 years?

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    propertyboy wrote:
    I want to pursue this.

    Can anyone recommend a property lawyer in Melbourne?

    I really want to speak to someone and see if I have a case? They might say there is nothing I can do. Do lawyers usually charge to hear what a client needs? I want to sit down explain the situation and see if the lawyer thinks they can do something, but I dont want to pay them a fee just for telling them the story. I am more than happy to pay once we process with the claim (assuming they think legally there is something that can be done).

    In the meantime, I might put a caveat on the property.

    Can I put a caveat on the property saying "title was illegally transferred"? Are there any limits on what you can say on the caveat? If not, whats stopping randoms from just putting caveats on titles and being pests?

    Don't go putting caveats on other people's property without legal advice or you could be up for some very expensive costs in the Supreme Court when they remove it. $20k or so.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of propertyboypropertyboy
    Participant
    @propertyboy
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 232
    JacM wrote:
    If Fred has been the legal owner since 1989, then wouldn't the council rates have been adressed to him?  And if so, how come your dad hasn't noticed he hasn't been sent a council rates bill for more than 20 years?

    He knew, his brothers came and made him sign with force and bullied him

    Profile photo of Jacqui MiddletonJacqui Middleton
    Participant
    @jacm
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 2,539

    I thought you said your dad did not sign it himself and was not there? If this is the case, first and foremost it is fraud and a visit to the police is in order.

    Jacqui Middleton | Middleton Buyers Advocates
    http://www.middletonbuyersadvocates.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    VIC Buyers' Agents for investors, home buyers & SMSFs.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    There is also the Limitations Act VIC to consider. It may be too late to bring a claim now – generally 6 or 12 years is the limit.

    PB, have you seen a lawyer about this?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of propertyboypropertyboy
    Participant
    @propertyboy
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 232

    Not yet, can someone recommend a property lawyer in Melbourne that will hear my case and charge should we take this to court.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    http://www.lawyersrealestate.com.au/

    Not sure if they do other than conveyancing though.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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