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  • Profile photo of Benjamin CsikosBenjamin Csikos
    Participant
    @benjamin-csikos
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 114

    When talking to people about money, I often hear the words "I don't really care about money."

    It is such a common statement. Many people feel that if they care about money that they are being greedy, superficial, or material minded.

    "Money is the root of all evil."

    It's one of the most misquoted verses of the bible.  If people actually read that verse from it's source they'd realise the real text says "The LOVE of money is A root of many kinds of evil."

    Money isn't evil. 

    What one needs to remember is that money is not the end goal. It's merely a tool in achieving the end goal.  That end goal can be different for everyone.

    At first glance, I think there are 6 things that people value in their lives, and the list of priorities is different for everyone.  Health, Wealth, Friends, Family, Career, Spirituality.

    If you put these in order of your priorities, and ask your friends around you to do the same, you'll learn a lot about yourself, and eachother.  Some will put others before themselves, others will put careers before their friends.  Some will put spirituality above all else.  

    Many people will put wealth last on their list of priorities, and family first.  "I want to spend as much time with my kids as possible. It's not about making money."

    However, if you don't have any wealth, it's pretty hard to spend quality time with your kids when you're forced to work two jobs just to feed them.

    What about spirituality? Perhaps you have a heart for underpriviledged kids.  With enough wealth, you'll be in a much better position to be effective in your generosity.

    Balance is the key. Each of the 6 affect the other.  If you put one too high on the list, it can be at the expense of another. If you chase money and work all the time, your family life will suffer. If you put your family on the top of the list but ignore money, they'll still suffer.

    There is no substitute for your own education. Don't be afraid of money. Recognise it as a tool to achieve a more wholesome, healthier and fuller life in what you really value.  Where your treasure is, so will your heart be also. 

    Profile photo of SurrealistSurrealist
    Member
    @surrealist
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 30

    I feel some ambivalence toward the issue of money – interesting topic though. On the one hand, people shouldn't use their love for money (as per your bibilical quote) to disadvantage someone else. This kind of activity can take on a number of forms from selling via manipulating people, especially vulnerable people, into purchasing meaningless or expensive products, or outright ripping someone off by way of exploiting someone's ignorance.

    On the other hand I think it's important to have enough money so as not to burden society or other people unnecessarily. It is little benefit to anyone if you give all your money away to someone, charity included, if you are left with not enough to live and then have to depend on someone else.  

    One thing I have commonly noticed is that those who preach 'money doesn't matter' soon change their tune when they don't have enough of it themselves. Money certainly does matter when you suddenly lack it.

    I use to attend churches that were big on money collection and the hypocrisy was so annoying that I couldn't bring myself to continue attending. Often it was preached to trust God with your finances all the while holding out their hand for you to part with your hard earned, even if it left you without, freely taking from pensioners and the unemployed and so on. Why can't these churches equally trust God to provide for them rather than resort to outright manipulative, and often guilt-laden tactics?     

    Profile photo of Benjamin CsikosBenjamin Csikos
    Participant
    @benjamin-csikos
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 114

    Ha!  Now there's a can of worms.

    Where do you think the money goes once you've put it into the collection plate?

    Do you think it's charity?  perhaps a little.  Missions? Sure, a little there too. Staff wages? yep, a bit of that.

    But you know where most of it ends up?

    Paying off the building that you're sitting in.  You're essentially paying for the rent of your seat.

    What…a waste….of money.

    See, church buildings are one of the worst 'investments' I can think of.   Churches pay through the nose to own large auditoriums. They don't rent the building out to others throughout the week, and they never sell it!  So they can't make a cashflow positive investment through the rent, and the capital gains means absolutely nothing because it's never sold! Instead, churches fork out thousands and thousands…and THOUSANDS of dollars for the upkeep of a building that they use for approximately 4 hours a week.  If they merely sold the money trap that is their building, and rented a place for a few hundred bucks a week,  your tithes and offerings could be used for something a little more worthwhile, rather than just paying for the comfort of four walls you can call your 'own.'

    Forget the building. Meet in a cafe, at home, in a park, rent a spot, or anywhere else you can think of.

    I thought christians were supposed to be good stewards with their money.

    Profile photo of 1Winner1Winner
    Participant
    @1winner
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 478
    Church building ownership. Clearly the best way to throw other people's money to the wind.
    But you can not take it in isolation since most people regard the building as the church, and long for a big new building the same way everyone else wants their local social club to grow and have a big building. Makes you feel good and so it should.

    However, and forgetting the bad business of owning the church building, your post on money is rather rich coming from a Christian. (pun intended)

    Clearly the worst possible concept to come from the Christian ethos and repeated at nauseam by media secular or not, is that "Rich is evil and poor is virtuous". This poisonous concept that has permeated all strata of society is single handedly responsible for the lack of financial progress in almost any person you come in contact with. Rich go to hell. Poor go to paradise. Rich bastards warm up the planet. Poor people are green and lean and mean well.

    Ask the following question: "What is OK to earn a year and what is too much"

    Depending on your audience you will get the $100k average as the ceiling, a few mentions of 200k that check behind them after saying so and several clear statements that anything above 300k is just wrong. No one really needs that… One million? That is plainly obscene.

    And you can lay the above culture of mediocrity straight at the foot of the interpreters of the bible, who twist their audience into a schizophrenic spin of "Don't work for the money….yet give me 10% of what you earn"
    The winner is of course the one who earns absolutely nothing and get's supported by the rest to do the most important thing of all. Tell the others how they are wasting their time chasing "material things". Stop at once, drop what you are doing and work for the Lord they tell you. Yet if you did so, they will have to sell the building in no time and end up in a paid job for once in order to make ends meet.

    If it wasn't so seriously bad, it would be a joke.

     
    I love money. I love the freedom it gives, the power to do what you want, the choices it allows you to have. The thrill and the challenge to make more of it. The satisfaction to spend it wisely or otherwise.
    Churchianity and it's culture of poor is good, rich is bad, should be punished…perhaps with higher taxes to compensate for wasted opportunities, lack of ambition, destruction of plans and careers etc

    Profile photo of HandyAndy888HandyAndy888
    Member
    @handyandy888
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 160

    This is a great thread…perhaps Ben you should read Rich Dad, Poor Dad….it’s kind of different, but still relevant to this convo.

    Profile photo of ten_burnerten_burner
    Participant
    @ten_burner
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 242

    Hi guys

    I think its funny when people say they dont care about money yet these same people work 8-10hr a day, 5 – 6 days a week.. all for what ??

    you guessed it… MONEY

    Profile photo of thecrestthecrest
    Participant
    @thecrest
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 990

    Yes a great thread , good one Benjamin, the genie is out of the bottle or is it worms everywhere, but this thread gives some very interesting people the chance to let their idealogy off the chain and share it.
    Good one ten_burner – " hope is not a strategy " , i can use that with my kids, thank you.
    Marc – thanks for ratifying daydreaming, it's an amazing tool that has helped me for years.

    Someone once said "I've tried poor, I prefer rich. " and that's really me, gotta agree with that one.
     Occasionally Hollywood produces some off screen gems like this one  "anyone who says money won't buy everything just doesn't know where to shop"  ooooh yeah, try that without money.

    If money destroyed spirituality, how come so many high profile gurus have helicopters ?

    Money like any other powerful tool, can be a force for good. Mine is aimed at providing retirement comfort and security,
    better health care for my family, better training and ongoing educational opportunities for my kids, reliable transport, better food, and certainly better entertainment. Our money also helps a few deserving people along the way when we can identify an opportunity where it won't be wasted, like leg up not handout.

    Churches – I can understand why they used to need permanently owned buildings, so they couldn't be manoevered out of town by the opposition probably. Not sure I can justify the opulence of the Vatican with the poverty we have in the world. Wouldn't hurt to sell a few paintings. JC threw out the money changers who were profiting from the devout.

    Balance of the 6 things is surely the key as Ben says, keeping the balance is a challenge.

    Hope you all find balance   

    cheers
    thecrest 

    thecrest | Tony Neale - Statewide Motel Brokers
    http://www.statewidemotelbrokers.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    selling motels in NSW

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