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  • Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Hello my name is John.
    I have bought my first property and have finished reading 0 to 130. I am living at the house for at least a 6 month period to get the FHOG and then moving back to my parents house. I am then going to rent out the property and hopefully have enough money to buy the new property.
    Currently the house is under my name and the loan is set up as a P&I with an offest account, this is just how the bank set it up.

    My questions are:
    1. Is there a better way that the current loan could be set up?
    2. Is it worth setting up a trust right from the start or later when I have a few more properties under my name?
    – also when setting up a trust is it possible to have multiple trustees to be guarantors (ie my parents) to increase borrowing capacity?
    3. Can anyone recommend any more useful books to learn from?

    I would much appreciate any help.
    John

    Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year.

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Hi John

    Firstly welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy your time with us.

    Couple of quick points:

    1) Certainly wouldnt have the loan P & I even on my PPOR so would look to switch this to Interest Only with 100% offset.
         Also make sure it is a true offset account and not a suido non transactional account.

    2) Yes you could add your parents in as Trustees however in additional to their income being taken into consideration any lender will also want to know their liabilities and this will work against you especially if they own the odd property or two.

    Also will certainly restrict them for the future as each loan they will be providing a Guarantee. 

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    I also would recommend a IO loan with an offset. Using PI means you are paying down the loan and have less cash available for a new PPOR later on.

    Having multiple trustees is not good from an asset protection pov, but you can often have relatives guarantee trust loans if need be as they are beneficiaries of the trust. Having a company as trustee also makes things more flexible as shareholders/directors can be added and changed easily.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Thank you for your advice.

    So would it be worth setting up the trust even if I only have one property at the moment or should I get a couple more under my belt before I set up a trust? Also how easy will it be later on to transfer property in my name to a family trust or a corporate trust?

    I just want to be able to build a firm foundation by getting as much information as possible to avoid hurdles that can be taken away.

    Thank you both once again for the advice.

    John Mina

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Post Count: 16,213

    You can't set up a trust after you have purchased – or you will need to sell to the trust. it is easy to do but costly as you will have to pay stamp duty and probably CGT tax as well as legals and loan exit and app fees again.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Thanks for the heads up Terry.

    So what do you recommend I do before my next purchase to set things up right? That is if there is anything else I should do.

    Thank you
    John

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Post Count: 16,213

    hi John

    Just do the sums for with a trust and with the place in a personal name. (although remember tax is just one aspect). If there is a loss see how long it will take to turn around. Factor in any tax savings you would have in your own name – buying in your own name could mean you can get another one sooner too.

    Then research trusts more, become familiar with all the roles in the trust – appointor, trustee, beneficiary etc. Learn as much as you can and then go and see an accountant to see if they recommend setting one up. By this time you should be able to follow their reasoning on why you should or shouldn't and you may know enough to know if they know enough!

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Hi Terry

    I have taken your advice about doing more research about trust and I wanted to ask two of many questions.
    1. After 80 years the trust must distribute all assets, so my question is what is the solution to keeping these assets to pass down them down to my children in the future?
    2. If a property is negatively geared the losses stay in trust (DT). So those losses are paid out of my own pocket and cant be tax deducted, is this correct?

    Also I wanted to clarify what did you mean about doing the sums? Im willing to put in the time i just wasn’t sure which numbers i was suppose to be crunching.

    Thank you for pointing me in the right direction and appreciate all the help

    John Mina

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    hi John

    80 Years is a long time and it will probably be your grandkids getting the property then. When the trust must vest or wind up the trustee distributes the trust assets to the beneficiaries. At present some states would be stamp duty free, not sure about CGT it would probably be payable though. Remember taxes/stamp duties etc are likely to change before the time comes. The beneficiaries then own it outright and can do as they please with  the asset.

    This law, called the law against perpetuities, is designed to prevent rich families from locking up assets long term over many generations.

    JUst think of your trust as a third person. Lets call him X. If X has a loss you can't claim it against your income. Its his to keep until he can make a profit. But you could lend him the money or gift him money to keep him afloat until the profit comes in.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Hi

    Thanks for that Terry that clears some things up. I’m just waiting for my accountant to come back from holiday and I’ll be speaking to him in a lot more detail, till then I’m trying to learn as much as possible.

    I have a few questions about the equity of a property and if anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.
    1 In a trust structure is it possible to use the equity of a property for personal use or as a deposit for another IP?
    2 If the equity can be used can it be used to pay back a debt on an existing negatively geared property to make it positively geared?
    3 Does borrowing the equity from an IP increase the loan repayments of that loan or is it just borrowing against the equity and is a different loan all together therefore having its own repayments?

    Thank you
    John

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Hi John

    1) In a trust structure is it possible to use the equity of a property for personal use or as a deposit for another IP?
    I assume you mean where the property is owned by the Trust can you access the equity. Yes just make sure you split the loans so each can be identified.

    2) If the equity can be used can it be used to pay back a debt on an existing negatively geared property to make it positively geared?
    Yes but there would be no sense in doing so as the interest on the loan raised on the other property would negate the benefit.

    3) Does borrowing the equity from an IP increase the loan repayments of that loan or is it just borrowing against the equity and is a different loan all together therefore having its own repayments?

    It depends on how you structure it. You can either incresae the existing loan or take out a secondary loan. The later is certainly a lot cleaner and therefore would have no bearing on the original loan repayments as it in turn would have its own commitment.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Hi Richard

    Thanks for that and thanks for the email again.
    in regards to 2. so the best way to reduce debts in negatively geared property is making lump sums of cash from other properties ie selling, so besides the obvious are there any other ways I should know about?

    Also with 3 as long as I a secondary loan is taken out the original loan is not at all affected and treated as a new loan or have I got this wrong?

    Thank you
    John Mina

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
    Participant
    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Hi John

    Yes it is but i am unsure why you would want to.

    Using an interest offset account will reduce the interest charged however still protect both the access to the cash funds and the interest deductability in the case you decide to want to buy a PPOR.

    No you are right the separate loan sits in behind the first loan and does not effect the payments. Has to be with the same lender of course.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    johnmina wrote:
    Hi Thanks for that Terry that clears some things up. I'm just waiting for my accountant to come back from holiday and I'll be speaking to him in a lot more detail, till then I'm trying to learn as much as possible. I have a few questions about the equity of a property and if anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated. 1 In a trust structure is it possible to use the equity of a property for personal use or as a deposit for another IP? 2 If the equity can be used can it be used to pay back a debt on an existing negatively geared property to make it positively geared? 3 Does borrowing the equity from an IP increase the loan repayments of that loan or is it just borrowing against the equity and is a different loan all together therefore having its own repayments? Thank you John

    Hi John

    in Regards to 1. The asset is not yours. It belongs to the trust which means all the beneficiaries of the trust. The trustee has a ficiary obligation to act in the best interests of the beneficiaries so you cannot use this funds as if they are your own because technically they are not. So you have to be careful if borrowing money from the trust or the trust letting you use its property etc. If the trustee is a company you need to be extra careful about borrowing money or the ATO may deem it a dividend payment.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Hi Richard and Terry

    Well I know now that using an interest only loan with a 100% offset is best but is it worth lowering the the principal of the loan to ensure it is positively geared. Because if I put all the money in an offset account to reduce the interest therefore making it cash flow positive and then later on use the money in the offset account for another IP, this would mean the interest on the first property would rise and if my cost are more then the income on that property then it would become negatively geared again. Is this correct?
    Im trying to make it as safe as possible to ensure positive cash flow.

    For example at the moment I have a loan of 280k but if i reduce it to 250k it would become cash flow positive and then place extra money in the offset account further reducing interest but when I need that money at least I know that the first IP will stay positive.
    Is what I’m trying to do correct/make sense or is there a better way?.

    Also If the second loan sits behind the first loan is this what is meant by cross collateral? If so shouldn’t this be avoided?

    Then in regards to 1 if I was to borrow equity it is best to use it to further invest for the trust and just wait for the profits which I could then distribute as an income to use for personal use.

    Thank you
    John

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    You would only want to pay down an investment loan if you had no non-deductible debt at all. Even then I personally wouldn't do it, but keep the loan IO with the offset.

    Also i doesn't really matter if you pay down the first one and have a higher second loan – what you should be looking at is the overall LVR. From a borrowing POV it may be better to repay the minimum and keep the cash for the deposits for the next one.

    Cross collateratisaltion = using 2 securities for 1 loan.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    wow thanks for that Terry
    But what if the investment loan is in a trust and the trust is not making any profit yet therefore deductions cant be claimed right or have I got this confused? or would I simply just as told and keep it IO with offset.

    I understand what you mean by paying minimum and save the deposit. This has helped me realize that I could probably get the next one sooner then expected with the deposit already saved. but i should keep my LVR under 80% correct?

    and thanks for clarifying cross collateral is.

    Thank you very much
    John

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hi John

    If your trust is making a loss you will need to inject funds into it somehow – either a gift of loan. Deductions can always be claimed by the owner of the builder and this will be used to offset other income. If no other income then the overall loss may be bigger – which can then be used in the future.

    Keeping LVR at 80% will avoid LMI (with major banks), but it may be ok to go higher depending on your circumstances. Try to borrow the deposit from other property and lend to the trust rather than use your cash (put that towards your PPOR loan).

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of johnminajohnmina
    Member
    @johnmina
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 17

    Hi Terry
    when you say “Deductions can always be claimed by the owner of the builder and this will be used to offset other income” when you say builder do you mean the builder of the trust or what?

    thank you
    john

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Sorry, spelling mistake.

    The owner of the building claims the deductions. ie owner of the property. Trust if purchased in a trust.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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