All Topics / Legal & Accounting / converting non-deductable loan to deductable?

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  • Profile photo of CJWentworthCJWentworth
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    @cjwentworth
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 47

    Hey guys, now I've ready countless times over that it's not how the money is given, but how it is used when it comes to determining tax deductibility

    Now I have a 70k owing on a block of land worth ~140k (indicative of the market surrounding it). 20k in redraw. Obviously the interest and costs are not tax deductible, but if I were to redraw that 20k and use it to buy shares, does the interest that the 20k generate become tax deductible?

    Even if it were, it'd be pretty messy come tax time, so any suggestions? Should I just leave everything as is and dive into margin lending?

    Thanks heaps :)

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hi CJ

    Why do you say that "obviously" the interest on vacant land is not deductible when it certainly can be, if you are, or intended to, own the land with investment in mind?

    If you borrow money to buy shares then it sounds like you are borrowing for investment purposes. Taking money from a redraw is the same as borrowing. i would be claiming the interest if I did it.

    if your loan was IO, it would be easy to aportion the interest – it would be as straigh percentage.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of CJWentworthCJWentworth
    Participant
    @cjwentworth
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 47
    Terryw wrote:
    Hi CJ

    Why do you say that "obviously" the interest on vacant land is not deductible when it certainly can be, if you are, or intended to, own the land with investment in mind?

    If you borrow money to buy shares then it sounds like you are borrowing for investment purposes. Taking money from a redraw is the same as borrowing. i would be claiming the interest if I did it.

    if your loan was IO, it would be easy to aportion the interest – it would be as straigh percentage.

    I thought that interest on a non-earning investment (block of land), was only allowed to be added to the cost base of a property upon sale. My intention with this block has always been to build for investment, but how does one prove that. In my case it may be a few years before I can afford to actually build out there.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hi CJ

    Yes you can claim interest on vacant land. Do a search for "steele" on the ATO website. The was a legal case involving someone called Steele and the claiming of interest on vacant land. Steele won!

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Also have a look at the next article in the Bantacs newsletter: Shifting Non Deductible Debt to Business Debt

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of CJWentworthCJWentworth
    Participant
    @cjwentworth
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 47

    wow. Hadn't realized this were possible. While my intention has always been to build to invest, I don't know how I can prove it, or if I've already left it too late. It'll probably be years before I can afford to build on it

    Profile photo of CJWentworthCJWentworth
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    @cjwentworth
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 47

    Ok, so I've now redrawn 6k and bought shares with them. When push comes to shove how does one prove that any extra repayments going into the homeloan are not paying off the redrawn funds for the shares?

    I'm hesitant to claim the interest that the 6k is incurring (though I feel that I would be entitled to) on the basis that I don't know how to prove that if I were to pay a further 6k extra into my loan, that I weren't paying off the "shares" money.

    I hope that makes sense.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hi CJ

    The problem when taking a redraw from a owner occupied loan is apportioning the interest. it won't matter so much if the whole loan is for investment as you will be claiming all the interest anyway so if you get the portions wrong you will still arrive at the same results.

    I would calculate it as a percentage. eg. if the total loan is $60,000 and you use $6,000 for shares, then 10% of the interest would be attributed to the shares.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of CJWentworthCJWentworth
    Participant
    @cjwentworth
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 47

    Thanks so much for your wisdom Terry,

    I assume you would you calculate it the same way if only the portion used for shares were going to be claimed, and the remainder not.

    My entire buying amount incl brokerage was 5831.90… my entire loan amount is 91k, but I had 22k redraw (69k owing). Now that I've redrawn the 5831.90, obviously my owing amount is now ~ 75k, I assume with your calculations that I should calculate the % of interest towards shares as ~7.7% (5831.90 as a % of 75k)

    I'd still like to know how one would prove that if I pay an extra 5831.90 into my home loan, that it won't be considered as paying off the "shares" portion of the loan… I suppose this is why people generally take out a new loan to invest in shares (via margin lending?)

    Thank you again :)

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    CJWentworth wrote:
    Thanks so much for your wisdom Terry,

    I'd still like to know how one would prove that if I pay an extra 5831.90 into my home loan, that it won't be considered as paying off the "shares" portion of the loan… I suppose this is why people generally take out a new loan to invest in shares (via margin lending?)

    Thank you again :)

    Hi CJ

    This is a trap for young players. If you were to make a repayment to a combined loan like this you cannot elect to repay just the home loan portion, but must attribute the repayment in the same portions. in your case 7.7% of each repayment must go to the share portion.

    I think your portions are correct, but check with your accountant as I am not one.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of CJWentworthCJWentworth
    Participant
    @cjwentworth
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 47

    Awesome, thanks so much again Terry.

    ***ANSWERED*** (however un-verified by an accountant figure)
    Disclaimer/Warning: Errr, yeah… so while thismakes sense to me, I'm no accountant and Terry's stated the same. Anyone with a background in accounting is more than welcome to either verify or add to the reasoning :) in fact, I encourage someone to

    __________

    To close off this thread in case anyone else does read it,

    Using Redrawn money to buy shares from a non-deductible loan will convert that portion of the loan into a tax-deductible interest portion. The redrawn amount should be calculated as a % and that % used when calculating how much interest is deductible.

    Example.

    DEDUCTIBILITY
    100,000 loan on a block of land with 20,000 redraw (extra repayments on top of interest): total amount owing 80,000. Interest rate of 10% (to make things simple, however we may be heading that way)

    10,000 is redrawn to buy shares, bringing the total amount owing to 90,000.

    10,000 as a % of 90,000 is 11.11%

    90,000 @ 10% pa = $9,000 interest, of which 11.11% is tax deductible

    9,000 x 11.11% = $999.9 deductible interest


    EXTRA REPAYMENTS
    Any extra repayments are treated the same way as above. 11.11% will always be deductible, as you can't choose which portion of the loan is to be repaid.

    10,000 payed back into the account will actually be treated as 11.11% payed back into the tax deducible portion of the loan, and the remaining 88.89% into the non deductible.

    So back to 100,000 loan with 90,000 owing, 10,000 paid back into the account bringing us back to a total of 80,000 owing. As we're playing with percentages here, in the end 11.11% of the interest is still going to be tax deductible as the 10,000 payed back into the account is split as such

    10,000 x 11.11% = $1111 payed back to the "shares" portion of the loan
    10,000 x 88.88% = $8888 payed back into the "land" portion of the loan

    Therefore, 80,000 @ 10% = $8,000 interest of which 11.11% is tax deductible, = $888.88

    Profile photo of CJWentworthCJWentworth
    Participant
    @cjwentworth
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 47

    one thing I would like to add, I think things get really difficult if you redraw again… >.<… I assume at this point however one should be considering getting an entirely separate loan lol

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