will be back soon with part three and the current status.
Gross it doesn’t seem too many people are interested in your post there has not been one response to you other than your own in 21 days – why bother.
I don’t nor would I ask people to invest in anything I tell people what I am looking at investing in and leave people to make up there own mind.
If I was give the chance to go a roller coaster ride and told I can hop off any time I wanted and this was a investing ride with rene, harry trig or even one of the share trader (not into shares that much) roller coaster drivers then I would buy that ticket.
Gross the above was posted by YOU – READ your first line then READ your signiture line when you sign off where YOU are adverising for investors _ go figure!!!
DLuke TaylorParticipant@world-changerJoin Date: 2005Post Count: 415
Gross has got some big vision in the deals he takes on and often wins . Dont put him down as alot of us appreciate learning from him.
all the best
We’ve got 70 yrs on planet earth,Lets make the most of every day!
I am interested in everyone views I may not agree with them but interested in them any way.
this interests me.
Gross it doesn’t seem too many people are interested in your post there has not been one response to you other than your own in 21 days – why bother.
I haven’t put this here for people to post if they are interested then post away but with regards to the last two words interest me alot and the reason is that alot of people have this attitude and is not unformilar when it comes to people not only investing but also going out side the norm of the 3br house in parramatta or mt isa for that matter.
they try to reason there own experience with others and if it doesn’t drop into there pigeon hole of investing they say why bother.
well for me it simple and that is to make money thats why I bother, with relation to this post is because I have been asked to explain a soup and thats what this is.
there are lots of people on this planet and we all have our risk profiles some people don’t mind risk some do I explain the different projects that I am involved in and people can decide if they wish to get involved if they wish or not.
and you can cut and paste any one of my posts and you will find the same non of the people involved in my projects are under any illusion of what we are trying to achieve and if they wish to get on board they are in for the ride of the investing life and its up to them what there risk profil is.
for wealth4life.com I have a very simple answer and that is why bother?
I will be putting up chapter 3 with in a week or two and people can have a read.
oh and for those wondering no I don’t sell books, investment seminars, or investing clubs there seems to be alot of people that have these fancy web sites and sell fancy investor learning programmes that will help everyone under the sun to invest and will put people in touch with the best people in the investing market but are not sure why you would post this for free and why bother, this is straight out investing and this project is fully funded there are a couple of issues that need ironing out at this stage but reading wealth4life.com post maybe I should throw in the towel with its all to hard.
oh sorry for me non of these soups are to hard it just whats the return that I look at.
or maybe book into one of wealth4life or resiwealths investment seminars I am sure I will learn heaps there.
I will have to book in after the last of these are finalised.
these deals are out of most people standard investing criteria or values and as I said I do take all peoples posts and am not one to critize but this is up for people to learn and guess what else I’m not charging for it).
oh sorry for me non of these soups are to hard it just whats the return that I look at.lifeXMember@lifexJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 651
I appreciate the opportunity to read about some of your deals. Even if the text is a little confusing.
I understand how difficult it is to write when you have a very busy schedule.
W4L…. ?…… Are you living proof of the futility of giving jewels to fools?[freak]DazzlingMember@dazzlingJoin Date: 2005Post Count: 1,150
Keep going mate – I’m extremely interested.
Most of the stuff our group deals with, when I discuss it also, most people fall asleep or ignore it also as it outside their small remit of 3 bed houses and/or flats, or region of confidence and knowledge.
Even with our differing experiences, I’m hanging on by the tip of my fingernails trying to grasp the magnitude and complexity of your deals (soups indeed !!!).
I’ve learnt to read through your writing style and can now understand 99% of what you are getting at.
For me, with W4L above comments, it’s a bit like a 2 year old infant criticising a Law professor on some critical point of some obscure law.
You are miles in front of us !!
Your negotiating tactics alone, if employed by our group, could save us literally many millions over the next few months.
Can’t wait for you to come over to Perth. Living here permanantly now, I’ll definitely buy you that long awaited Scotch.
Good on you. Can’t wait for the next installment. Cheers.
Sorry guys this was just an observation, as i found reading thid thread very hard and confusing, i simply could not follow it as it seemed to me to be very contriductry ..
I will stay away from grosses in the future – didn’t mean to be negative either as we are developers as well and haven’t come across this type of techniques. Maybe we are idiots i guess and gross is really a big time negotiator i really don’t know, sorry gross good luck.
I will keep up with the post and will give you the next run down very shortly
I do have to be very carefull with this soap as the people involved are going to loss alot of money and have already lost alot and I do have to be very carefull that the eagles don’t try to pull me into that same mix of litigation.
I have done nothing for the last three weeks on this project except extracate myself and our company out of that litigation mix and we have had a lot of success hence the reason for the deal.
if you want to understand my negotiating skills I will post next chapter on how I negotiated this deal and what had to be done to get the players to play ball the way I wanted them to.
there is not just me involved in this soup I have what I class( and everyone classes there team the best) the best team behind me
and just as you have in any soccer team you have different players and these players have different roles and some times the striker( me) has the ball
but if you have to score you may have to pass the ball to another player ( your legal)
and he may have to pass to the winger (your buyers agent) who may have to give the opposition the ball
so your midfielder ( your legals) can get it back and pass to the winger( your buyers agent )
and then on to you
and the striker has it again.
this for a coach is normal practise you just have to put the team together to score the goal.
and the players for me are
goal keeper ( accountant)
defenders ( builders, project managers,brokers)
midfield ( legals, barristers,)(merchant bankers)
wingers ( real estate, buyers agents,)( liquidators)
strikers (negotiators) (usually in groups of three but have done a couple of projects with two lately)
each of the above have very different skills and I do need to use them all at some time and you do have to have a great belief that they can do there job.
and some meeting some times in a group conference situations.
and as for why you would bother and you should forget it
well currently while we have been going at this project all but the strikers have all had the same opinion at some stage
and the midfields at one stage would not talk to the opposition so we thru the ball to a winger to get the project moving again and it did
the midfield is 100% behind the deal now.
as they see that the inpass has been gotten over.
my style is very straight forward and use a core of people we bring people to the table and invite people to join our little group when needed but we also kick the non performers out twice as quick if they can’t do what you say.
If we pass the ball you must be able to deliver or we take the ball back and it doesn’t go there again.
and the buck stops at my computer.
if i think its not going to come off I drop it and gain as much out of the deal as possible and have three exit strategies for each project.
so that we have fall back position to regain the ball and move forward again.
as with any of these project securing the site is but a very small part
the next part is to secure, that when you are the owner out right that you are not attacked from all sides in our legal system
or for that matter in another legal system if the soup is overseas the grand hotel vanuatu was a classic case of securing a site but with the threat of attack from three side and having injunctions that would not allow you so continue construction, would kill any potential profit.
remember a soup is a soup and if you spill soup it burns
and if you lose alot of money soups want to recover it from some one
and if that soup includes banks then you need to shore up you legal position to stop this happening.
an injunction is relatively cheap to put on( in legal costs) but is a hell of a price to remove.
so you need to in no uncertain terms tell all concerned that this will not be allowed in advance
so if they do come you can hit for costs.
I don’t wish to go into to much detail the internal wrangling of this soup because I think it serves no purpose.
if you have any question by all means post then and I will answer them.
as I did say I have a bit of a hectic couple of weeks as this is not the only soup on my desk at the moment and the others are just as delicate as this one
this is one of the easiest from my point of view.
at the end of the day in this market I don’t need to do these deals as there are alot of them I pick and chose which I run with and the more difficult the easier to negotiate.
why you may ask.
simple everyone else throws there hands up and says to hard.
for some one to drop 4 mil into the sydney market
on a site that has three legal waiting to attack,
two arguing groups,
two banks waiting to liquidate,
a falling market,
banks squeezing on lending
a loss of ex amount already
and now an interest rate rise,
you show me the light,
no wonder people say for get it.
for me this is my market and I love to swim in it and if you see the light at the end of this tunnel and you put together a plan its a very good market to be in.
you make the most amount of profit from problem sites that you can solve because you have so much leverage.
I hope you enjoy this post I will try to pop back and add as needed.
with regard to the 15% just incase we get you are advertising an investment well my second tier lender is charging 15% so the interest will go to someone.
and is not to be seen as any form of advertising.
here to help
If you want to get involved in some of the projects I’m involved in email to [email protected]
currently looking for up front money at 15% p/a pm me if you wishelkamMember@elkamJoin Date: 2006Post Count: 722
Thank you for adding spacing and some punctuation to your post.
The last one was great to read.
I have been trying to follow your deal as it’s facinating but going cross eyed from trying to read it let alone understanding it.
Much appreciated. [smiling]
How’s the soup going Gross i’m interested to see whats happened to the pitcher, really i am as it must be very nervous pulling this togehter in a sliding market, also would be interested in what suburb it is.
DRavtownMember@ravtownJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 48
Am enjoying your Soup discussion very much.
Looking forward to hearing more on the progress.
Ravgazman1976Member@gazman1976Join Date: 2006Post Count: 7
I’m also enjoying the updates, most of this stuff you are doing is way out of my league (and a lot of the terms and concepts are new to me) but its good to hear whats happening in the bigger end of town.
I’m curious how you got to this stage in your career, did you start out with simple stuff like houses and units and progressed from there or did you work in a related industry like real estate or construction?
I will continue this post once I have got over a little legal issue. and not for a board at this stage.
with regard how I got here is I have been doing developing with a couple of groups for some time and I was the person that alloted to organise the brokers and funding.
after being at the meeting with the lenders and understanding what they wanted it was a nature progression to start to do the deals and then send out to the brokers.
I started with 15% of the profit and worked up to my current 50% and have got a couple that are 100% of the profit when they look really good.
never worked in construction or real estate can’t build anything except investment structures.
and this is not the big end of town this is the larger small end of town.
I have not forgot about this post when we have got over this legal hump in the road I will tell you either way how it goes for people to understand.
as with everything and soups and no different things change and turn and somethings you don’t have any control of, you have to stand back let the soup simmer once it has had enough time then reapply heat.
we are looking at reapplying heat but not at this stage got a few things to be done first.kermitMember@kermitJoin Date: 2005Post Count: 8
Hi Gross, just to let you know that another person has been reading and enjoying your posts. Keep them coming when you can.
With regards to this project I will know post the deals of the project as we have exchanged and are moving forward.
The value of the site in 2003 was 10mil
An option holder paid 800k for an option on the land to purchase the land at 8mil
And proceeded to spend in excess of 800k in added option fees from that date today.
The land owners had to hold there sites from then to today and has been paying holding cost in excess of 1.5 mil.
I purchased at 6,840,000 how did I get to the 6,840,000 easy 8,000,000 less the 800k deposit thatâ€™s 7,200,000 and les 5% as thatâ€™s the market movement down so 6,840,000 the site was purchased as a raw site with a da that is purchased each site separately.
To negotiate this I used a real estate agent as my purchasing agent.
Once the price was agreed we then had to reduce the deposit.
The deposit was at 684k so we got it to 5% 342k then we reduced this to 100k and exchanged on 100k so in reality thatâ€™s a 100k deposit/exchange (with limited liability to the new lusty street development company only) on a potential 43mil end product site and a 34% return.
Once we had a deal I also had to get the da and this was a job in its self.
I did a deal with copyright owner of the da plans and got those assigned to the owner of the land and in return I get the cc plans done via an associated company.
To get this thru I had also to negotiate a very sticky group of a legal mined field and to do that I negotiated that if you donâ€™t sue him I will organise this, and then if you donâ€™t get sued, then you will not sue him and around it goes.
These are very difficult to achieve and are very protracted we went thru 5 sets on contracts as we changed this and then changed that,
on top of that we have a vendor that has been told that someone was going to buy this property and all he sees if the moving of chess pieces on a commercial business table and its all to much to comprehend.
After getting thru the legal mined field it was a case of get the deposit down which was achieved and then the deal was done.
So I got 100k exchange on a 43mil site end value, with a fixed price contract and full lend for the major part of the construction and know have the da as well.
And a happy vendor a happy real estate as they have followed this deal with great interest (the owner of the real estate was surprised that the accepted the 5% and then 1.4%) the time to get the reduction of 3.6% was about three weeks of negotiating but I am not paying anything put my time and it doesnâ€™t tie up another 256k cash.
Even the loan the broker that has organised the loan I negotiated the brokerage fee and brought it down to a rate that I was happy with and is under Â½ % of the total loan.
At 6,840,000 thatâ€™s 75k per site and the norm is 95k thatâ€™s a value of 8,645,000
So for me itâ€™s a good deal,
The land mark white valuation is 7,200,000
I organised a full Gross realisation loan valuation by landmark white is 39,900,000
With a total construction Inc land of 29,000,000
For those interested why I do these deal I think that you may get that from reading a very good article Sydney morning herald good weekend 0ctober 7 2006 page 31 titled harder faster richer and why Mr Moses stays at Macqarie, is very similar to why I do these deals.
It maybe a while until the next post as I will be very busy with this projectJase and FlicParticipant@jase-and-flicJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 190
Awesome. Keep us informed when you can. Great for expanding my brain.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. – Jim ElliotTerrywParticipant@terrywJoin Date: 2001Post Count: 16,190
Thanks Gross, I have just read thru the whole thread for the very first time – very interesting.
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I hope you have enjoyed it.
I have put up this chapter as it will be a while until I get to the next one as I am in the middle of converting one of my comm shop fronts to my office and will have most of the team for this project in there.
got the electricity on today and phone and adls goes in tomorrow.
cc is already underway and hope to have that thru a private certifier before settlement.
then when settlement is done and we move to construction I will post if people are interested.
although this is my project
I basically end at the settlement from an involvement point of view and move to the next project that is already on the board.
and leave my team to look after it.
sorry about the delay but there may be more to come as I need to reorganise and structure offices to take in this project the builders and there project managers have there offices
and on top of that I have my team that is also made up of builders.
very interesting time.
as I tell most people the most important part of a development is the negotiating at the start thats were you
A. make your money
B. make the guide line and get a profit margin
C. the most important as with this vendor the most movement on price.
for those would be developers if they did a coarse in negotiating its worth is money in gold because thats where the money is.
If you become a good negotiator you will be street a head of the opposition.
this site is a 10mil site with a 100k executed contract and no opposition.
guess what this is not a diamond.
there are hundred if not thousand just like it out there. and some are alot smaller then this one.
why you might ask is it then that they have not been snapped up.
for me simple.
we don’t train negotiators to negotiate deals that work.
not all can be negotiated but I think alot can.
and if someone can take what I have put in this tread and use it or a similar manner
and become a good negotiator good on him or her ( and there is no gender restriction on negotiating).
for me they will go far.
soups are out there lots of them.
I have another one being excavated in feb next year but thats another story.
happy hunting and I hope you enjoyed the tread.
here to help
contact me [email protected]LaurisMember@laurisJoin Date: 2006Post Count: 1
Wow GR – I am new to this, but you are really talking business. Appreciate you sharing your insights. We can aspire to be like you.
Looking forward to hearing more – and share some info about your history if you may.