All Topics / Legal & Accounting / Trust – Personal guarantee – asset protection

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  • Profile photo of breakfreebreakfree
    Participant
    @breakfree
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    I plan to set up a trust for my property investment and I have been reading a lot on this forum about trust. I have a query about asset protection which I hope some trust experts from this forum can help me.

    This is a situation”

    I plan to set up a trust and I will be a trustee and backup appointer of the trust. My wife will be the primary appointer and beneficiary.

    the trust itself does not have any capital at the beginning to by any property for investment. So I have to give a personal guarantee to the bank on any loans the trust borrows to investment. I understand that The property name will be in the name of the trustee. If the trustee got sued, the appointer can sack the trustee and appoint another trustee. However the original trustee is the guarantee of the loan, how can this work out in the asset protection of the trust and will the trustee still responsible for the law sue. [confused2]

    I am still confused and appreciate some one on this forum can help me on this subject. [rolleyesanim]

    Breakfree

    Profile photo of WallFlowerWallFlower
    Member
    @wallflower
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 205

    I’m pretty sure you most probably should have a company as trustee so that if the company gets sued the trust appointee (you) sacks the company. This means further to setting up a trust you have to cough up to set up a company. All up around $1800. There’s also a heap of posts on this subject just do a search on ‘trusts’

    Sorry Terry, I’m just sooo excited [happy3]

    Profile photo of breakfreebreakfree
    Participant
    @breakfree
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    Thanks very much WallFlower for your reply.

    I will certainly looking into setting up a company as a trustee. I don’t know about the situation that if you personally guarantee of the loans, will you still be responsible even though the trustee has been sacked and new trustee appointed. [confused2]

    Can some one please explain to me more. I am still a newbie and try to learn to set up the structure properly. I would love to hear from some one knowing a fair bit about trust. I have read some posts about trust from Terry, Mel, SIS etc. and learnt a lot from them. I wonder if these trust “gurus” can shed some light and this subject and help me out.

    Thanks WallFlower again for your idea. [exhappy]

    Breakfree

    Profile photo of aussiemikeaussiemike
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    @aussiemike
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 66

    The structure depends on your circumstances and only a qualified accountant and/or lwayer can work through this with you. However establishing a discretionary trust with a company as the corporate trustee will provide both income distribution and asset protection. If the trustee is a company then the discretionary trust will have limited liability. If the business (operated through a trust with a corporate trustee) fails, the creditos of the business will sue the trust (technically they will sue the trustee as trustee of the trust – that is why you want a company as the trustee). The personal assets of the individual are protected.

    If the individual is bankrupted for some reason other than to do with the business, the business itself will be protected as the individual does not own in interest in the trust.

    However in some circumstances the individual may be personally liable if they are a director of the corporate trustee or if they have given negligent advice as an employee of the company.

    If you have a negatively geared property and are a high income tax earner then note that for tax purposes it would be better to have the asset in your own name rather than through a trust. All losses must be retained in the trust and cannot be distributed to the beneficiaries.

    However if you have positive income then a distretionary trusts can provide the following income streaming advantages:-

    1. Capital gains to beneficiaries with capital losses. A greater benefit is obtained when the capital gain is not eligible for the 50% CGT discount or active asset reduction. If the 50% CGT discount or active asset reduction applies, the distributed capital gain must be grossed up in the hands of the beneficiary before being offset against the beneficiary’s losses.

    2. Capital gains to beneficiaries on low marginal tax rates. Unfortunately this is not as effective as it was when averaging was applied.

    3. Link personal-use capital gains to beneficiaries with listed personal-use capital losses.

    Be careful however if you plan on transferring assets to establish a trust as it may trigger stamp duty or CGT, as there is a change in ownership.

    Because of the complexity of the issues you need to discuss your personal situation with your accountant and/or lawayer to determine the income streaming, asset protection and/or both that you require.

    Profile photo of breakfreebreakfree
    Participant
    @breakfree
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    Thanks very much aussiemike for such long detail post with very good explanation.[exhappy] However, I am still confused on this point: [confused2]

    “However in some circumstances the individual may be personally liable if they are a director of the corporate trustee or if they have given negligent advice as an employee of the company.”

    If I am a director of the corporate trustee and I personnally give guarrantee to the loans for the company, will I be still liable if the corporate trustee get sued.

    I will certainly discuss this with a lawyer or an accountant. However, I think it is better to educated myself first because some lawyers and accountants might not know all about this type of trust structure and therefore may give not very good advice and may set up the trust not water tide at all.

    Breakfree

    Profile photo of aussiemikeaussiemike
    Participant
    @aussiemike
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 66

    Even if a company is the trustee, the directors of the company can be made personally liable for the liabilities of the trust under S 197 of the Corporations Act 2001 where, for some reason, the company is not entitled to be fully indemnified out of the assets of the trust (for example, where the company acts beyond its powers)

    A director may also be personally liable under S 588G of the Corporations Act 2001 if the company incurs debts while it is insolvent. A director of a trustee company has a positive duty to prevent the trustee company from incurring debts while it is insolvent.

    Futher, directors and officers of trustee companies can be held personally liable for taxation offences of that trustee (S8Y of the Taxation Administration Act)

    Even though there are circumstances in which a director of a trustee company may be personally liable, a corporate trustee still offers the greatest protection than an individual being the trustee.

    For ultimate asset protection, you should consider not being a shareholder of the corporate trustee. If you are bankrupted, the trustee in bankruptcy could take control of the corporate trustee and distribute income or capital to you as a bankruptee which would then be used to pay your creditors.

    Although, arguable, this may constitute a breach of duty by the trustee and the appointer could change the trustee, it is best not to give the trustee in bankruptcy the opportunity, The shareholders could be your children (if aged 18 or over), your wife or parents, or maybe even a discretionary trust.

    Again best to consult your accountant and/or lawyer for this advice.

    Profile photo of GreatPigGreatPig
    Member
    @greatpig
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 284

    aussiemike,

    >> If you are bankrupted, the trustee in bankruptcy could take control of the corporate trustee and distribute income or capital to you as a bankruptee <<

    But wouldn’t the appointer be able to sack the trustee company before that could happen?

    GP

    Profile photo of aussiemikeaussiemike
    Participant
    @aussiemike
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 66

    GreatPig,

    The last paragraph of my response answers your question. “Although, arguable, this may constitute a breach of duty by the trustee and the appointer could change the trustee, it is best not to give the trustee in bankruptcy the opportunity. The shareholders could be your children (if aged 18 or over), your wife or parents, or maybe even a discretionary trust.”

    Profile photo of breakfreebreakfree
    Participant
    @breakfree
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    aussiemike, thanks very much again for telling me such valuable information.[exhappy]

    I am just looking at setting up a discretionary or hybrid trust with a company as a trustee and I am the director of it. I have no intention of using the company to trade or do any other business beside the function of trustee for the trust. More people looking at litigations in the society now just because other people are doing better than them, I just don’t want any liabilty which is not my fault.[worried]

    I appreciate your effort in explaining in lenght about the rules.[thumbsup2]

    Breakfree

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Good points Aussiemike.

    BTW. I made another post recently about a court case where the director of a corporate trustee was held liable.

    Terryw
    Discover Home Loans
    North Sydney
    [email protected]

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of breakfreebreakfree
    Participant
    @breakfree
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    Thank Terryw. I have read the article again and I can understand that if the corporate trustee did something considered to be illegal, then he/she will be liable for it. I am just concerned about some accidents which could lead to the trustee liable for it.[eh]

    Breakfree

    Profile photo of GreatPigGreatPig
    Member
    @greatpig
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 284

    aussiemike,

    Ah yes, sorry, I must have overlooked that part of your message.

    GP

    Profile photo of melbearmelbear
    Member
    @melbear
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 2,429

    breakfree

    As trustee, or director of the trustee company, the only guarantee that you provide is to the bank for the loan. You will only be held liable for this guarantee if the payments fail to be made – not because someone other than the bank is suing you as the trustee.

    If you sack the trustee, and appoint another, I guess you need to talk to your solicitor about what you need to do re the guarantees. i would guess that you would want to talk to the bank, and get the mortgage docs changed, if the ex trustee does not wish to continue guaranteeing the loans.

    Cheers
    Mel

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    If you change trustees, you must notify the lender and the new trustee will more than likely have to fill in a new application and provide a guarrantee. Most mortgage contracts prohibit changing trustees of the trust in anyway without the lenders permission.

    Terryw
    Discover Home Loans
    North Sydney
    [email protected]

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of breakfreebreakfree
    Participant
    @breakfree
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    Thanks very much Mel and Terryw for such valuable information and explain to me the exact information I was confused before. [thumbsup2][laughing][upsidedown]

    I love this forum with such great people.[thumbsup2][exhappy]

    Breakfree

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