PropertyInvesting.com | YoungInvestor | Activity https://www.propertyinvesting.com/members/younginvestor/activity/ Activity feed for YoungInvestor. Mon, 06 Apr 2026 02:39:13 +0000 https://buddypress.org/?v=2.8.1 en-US 30 hourly 2 db5dad7dabb01e26ec82b377d497c6fc YoungInvestor replied to the topic Still seeking a physical mentor in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4409905-still-seeking-a-physical-mentor/page/2/#post-4694201 Wed, 11 Sep 2013 14:25:32 +0000 All good mate. Whatever you go into you need to feel good about it or it may turn you off future investing. So take some more time to find out where and what you want to buy and then get it done.

As I said earlier the first one is always the hardest so get it out of the way asap and then go hard!

Steve.

]]> e76946319f317f71388db2f09689b07c YoungInvestor replied to the topic Still seeking a physical mentor in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4409905-still-seeking-a-physical-mentor/#post-4694198 Sun, 08 Sep 2013 00:07:39 +0000 Seb,

I am you, but 10 years down the track. I joined the forum in 2003 and am now 29 (with the big three oh not far away!). 

I started out like you as well, researching tirelessly and trying to learn from others. The advice I would give you is don't look for a single mentor. One person's method and ideologies are more than likely going to be…[Read more]

]]> bd66421c1db2bc05c58750eff48a0246 YoungInvestor replied to the topic should i stay with the same bank? in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4400992-should-i-stay-with-the-same-bank/#post-4630628 Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:18:47 +0000 eloi,At this stage in the economic cycle, Banker is right. There are VERY FEW non-bank lenders who are going to be able to offer the same deals as the big 4 at this point in time, and that will probably stay the same for at least another couple of years. I am aware of the recent economic reasons why 95% of mortgages in this country are now with…[Read more]

]]> 209a80f18ca8aec862f8b903fe30ede6 YoungInvestor replied to the topic First IP loan structure in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4400781-first-ip-loan-structure/page/2/#post-4629396 Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:06:55 +0000 Terry, That article is a bit of a worry as it goes against some common advice being given to property investors. I'd be interested to read about any similar cases you know of, or any which arise in the near future. Thanks for the reference.

]]> 315da288a053821dbb820e276c56a6ff YoungInvestor replied to the topic repayment calculation in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4400875-repayment-calculation/#post-4629874 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:43:58 +0000 Figc, I am sure Richard will explain in detail, however having an Interest Only loan with an Offset account gives you the same identical interest cost as paying down a P&I loan, however with greater flexibility. There are some great posts on this around the forums (probably 50% of them are from Richard), so perhaps have a look around and then fire…[Read more]

]]> c55632971ca368609411b35c7fcf91ae YoungInvestor replied to the topic CBA net profit of $5.6Billion in the forum Forum Frolic https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4400850-cba-net-profit-of-5-6billion/#post-4629710 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:15:19 +0000 I have to agree with Banker here (and not just because I am one). IMO the 4 banks WILL raise rates independently of the RBA due to higher funding costs. Whilst all the advertising, marketing, sponsorship etc goes into trying to impress the customer, the end game is shareholder returns and the margin squeeze coming over the next 6-12 months will…[Read more]

]]> b95e2ec24123fa27522e71c3db31d497 YoungInvestor replied to the topic No Housing Bubble in Australia...is there? in the forum DWolfe wrote:Hehehe, https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4400323-no-housing-bubble-in-australia-is-there/page/3/#post-4626602 Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:13:51 +0000 DWolfe wrote:
Hehehe, Philip, I thought it amusing that at 20 he is already bearish about the market. I'll never be able to change ummesters mind. Roar bears :)Yeah the market is changing and very quickly.Mooooooo! LOLD 

Wow D… how is it that you are the only one flying the flag… have I been gone that long? It must be time to buy!! So just 2…[Read more]

]]> 2f688ff15295d0d7813bf56aeef12e69 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Stamp duty payable if I sell PPOR to spouse (Victoria) ? in the forum Legal & Accounting https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4397598-stamp-duty-payable-if-i-sell-ppor-to-spouse-victoria/#post-4610590 Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:55:44 +0000 Hi Terry, Sorry to bring up an old post, but do you know how many times the "Natural Love and Affection" transfer clause can be used? Cheers,Steve.

]]> 4f4ba215357885aa4d6dea9c6d4156af YoungInvestor replied to the topic Do Pre-Tax Positive Cash Flow properties exist? in the forum General Property https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399295-do-pre-tax-positive-cash-flow-properties-exist/#post-4620538 Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:49:37 +0000 How about we have the discussion here instead?

]]> 67897c68bb4f81dc5ae007415f76d0f4 YoungInvestor replied to the topic advice needed with bank fees in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399257-advice-needed-with-bank-fees/#post-4620234 Wed, 24 Mar 2010 06:53:12 +0000 hi coolharry, The first question I would ask you is whether or not there is any chance you might rent the house out at some point. If so, keep the offset account as you need to preserve the balance of the loan in case you change the PPOR to an IP and need the cash to buy another IP. This way you will have more cash available for the new PPOR…[Read more]

]]> c63a36638a32ba72edbce2c7596d8d60 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Tenant request to have a cat in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399236-tenant-request-to-have-a-cat/#post-4620097 Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:42:20 +0000 Tracey – Love the idea about specifying the pets – Will remember this for the future! Thanks

]]> 255cfc22142f8a627ce604484ee76030 YoungInvestor replied to the topic New Investment Property in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399254-new-investment-property/#post-4620210 Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:32:20 +0000 Hi Daniel, Your mentioned the "remaining" mortgage amount.My first suggestion would be to change the principal and interest loan over to an interest only loan with a 100% offset.This way, you can keep all the money in the offset for when you buy a PPOR, and still preserve the deductibility of the investment property when you pull the cash out.In…[Read more]

]]> 7bc6ea39c75877ec9419ba65014a2aba YoungInvestor replied to the topic Tenant request to have a cat in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399236-tenant-request-to-have-a-cat/#post-4620093 Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:07:18 +0000 Hi keiko, I left a message for the BC yesterday, so hopefully I will hear on that one soon. Thanks for the suggestion.

]]> 96c09af1e49be6cec39c8c53efda8641 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Tenant request to have a cat in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399236-tenant-request-to-have-a-cat/#post-4620091 Tue, 23 Mar 2010 04:19:57 +0000 Thanks guys. PM will get back to me tomorrow regarding the additional bond and an alteration to the wording of the lease. Will let you know how it goes…

]]> 0157c7ef451c62c82d34480772e1b875 YoungInvestor replied to the topic HENRY REPORT - WHAT'S IN IT ? in the forum General Property https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399239-henry-report-whats-in-it/#post-4620138 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:57:02 +0000 hi thecrest, sorry about the private company – did a quick search without reading through the page :)I'll make it up to you by posting any proper articles or opinions i pick up once more info becomes available.

]]> e861b754825e04ecd025e0019c8115dc YoungInvestor replied to the topic Tenant request to have a cat in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399236-tenant-request-to-have-a-cat/#post-4620088 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:52:41 +0000 Thanks Sonya – I'll google it tomorrow to see what else comes up.

]]> 4ae39b05776a650b4f8c088d45f822a5 YoungInvestor replied to the topic HENRY REPORT - WHAT'S IN IT ? in the forum General Property https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399239-henry-report-whats-in-it/#post-4620136 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:27:19 +0000 http://www.henryreview.com.au/Free newsletter and e-mail alert if you want to know information as it is released.

]]> a4a46aebe18864d4cd00f1cb5a6720e6 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Tenant request to have a cat in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399236-tenant-request-to-have-a-cat/#post-4620086 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:22:39 +0000 Another great idea D – I'll canvas that with the PM tomorrow as well…Would you mind sending over a copy of one of your leases that has the wording for the pet bond in it?I am now thinking: – Make a point to the tenant that we are happy to keep rental the same- Sign a new 12 month lease with clauses regarding damage caused by pets and a mandatory…[Read more]

]]> 720016acfc45ac3554633cece41a345b YoungInvestor replied to the topic Tenant request to have a cat in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399236-tenant-request-to-have-a-cat/#post-4620084 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:05:22 +0000 Thanks for the reply Danny.The unit has wooden floors so hopefully no pet smell, but I like the idea of holding a higher bond amount. My partner raised a point that there could be wall or floor scratch marks from the cat, so perhaps 6 weeks bond, instead of 4 might cover any contingency there. I've left a message for my PM to call me tomorrow so…[Read more]

]]> d239690f821340c677b0d22339325305 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Need help with some GST?? :) in the forum hi milkshaker, Terry is https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399233-need-help-with-some-gst/#post-4620069 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:24:35 +0000 hi milkshaker, Terry is right – no GST in your example.

]]> e2ce9f2c681ed01a40fc56bff30c2c94 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Howdy! in the forum Forum Frolic https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399237-howdy-2/#post-4620102 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:20:34 +0000 Hi Pat, You will certainly find some motivating stories around the forums – and many of them come from people with average incomes, minimal capital, and several kids too!I hope you enjoy your time here, and best of luck with your plans!

]]> 9cb4dc66408fb124e22db051529248e9 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Tenant request to have a cat in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399236-tenant-request-to-have-a-cat/#post-4620082 Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:17:05 +0000 Thanks Dan, I tend to agree with you on the extra charge point. With regards to an agreement about cleanliness of grounds and dwelling, I think this is a little too hard to define and near impossible to monitor. I'll think about it some more though. Any other thoughts/ideas?

]]> 844b7e29d731b3d107d82ba1d0446c97 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Property Investment in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399213-property-investment-2/#post-4619961 Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:29:25 +0000 except LMI

]]> b4814eb44d5ad45cfc9d39c3fd7949cc YoungInvestor replied to the topic Investors in Melbourne wanting to join a monthly discussion group? in the forum Oh but wait... the property https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398280-investors-in-melbourne-wanting-to-join-a-monthly-discussion-group/page/4/#post-4614252 Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:29:07 +0000 Oh but wait… the property market might have crashed by then!?

]]> e3043f1e84a53a646130ed195c4aa462 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Investors in Melbourne wanting to join a monthly discussion group? in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398280-investors-in-melbourne-wanting-to-join-a-monthly-discussion-group/page/4/#post-4614251 Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:28:15 +0000 I definitely agree. There's only so much info you can gather about a place without actually being there.Schedule it in for Late April, early May

]]> b6d8ae7d39c00d4fc7b78c75c049ae32 YoungInvestor replied to the topic How to take the first step in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399182-how-to-take-the-first-step/#post-4619738 Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:36:04 +0000 Hi dbliss, It could be fear of losing money, or it could be"analysis paralysis" (something I suffered from , but got through due to the people around me pushing me to take action!!)"Analysis paralysis is where you can’t take any action due to over thinking about the details or over planning and is one of the best “action” killers we can possi…[Read more]

]]> 70b0831426c7fe5e755c8224fa8fafe1 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Repaying interest or principal on Investment Property in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399156-repaying-interest-or-principal-on-investment-property/#post-4619513 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:10:06 +0000 No probs. Like I said, I'm still a fan of Interest Only & Offset!Until next time!

]]> 331fa690158604506cfba96efdea339d YoungInvestor replied to the topic Repaying interest or principal on Investment Property in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399156-repaying-interest-or-principal-on-investment-property/#post-4619511 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:04:27 +0000 Agree to disagree?

]]> 997376d851d2a35100634e5e60f7a305 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Repaying interest or principal on Investment Property in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399156-repaying-interest-or-principal-on-investment-property/#post-4619509 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:45:40 +0000 You say you are interested, however seem quite sure that "non are good reasons" of what I have provided so far, so this is the last time I will explain. 1. Just because both add up to you doesn't mean that both will add up to the financier –  The servicing capacity concerns are still there for the bank as the person borrowing the cash could take…[Read more]

]]> 6693f2278ed4c91736801d7a9561bd66 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Repaying interest or principal on Investment Property in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399156-repaying-interest-or-principal-on-investment-property/#post-4619507 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:10:58 +0000 1. Despite having large amounts of cash in offset accounts, the bank may stop lending to you at a cetain debt level – For instance, even if some people have loans which are fully covered by offset cash, the bank will still only lend up to a cetain level based on serviceability if the borrower was to remove the cash the next day and spend it all on…[Read more]

]]> 8311f4f4926da29611b158414dc2ba71 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Investors in Melbourne wanting to join a monthly discussion group? in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398280-investors-in-melbourne-wanting-to-join-a-monthly-discussion-group/page/4/#post-4614248 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:57:14 +0000 Haha, I thought you might like that suggestion D I do most of my shopping online, but need to get out and pound the pavement more often, so lets do it!I'd be up for drive out West even if you're interested – It seems to have the only cheap property within 30 mins of the city these days – Surely not for too much longer.I'll PM you the property i'm…[Read more]

]]> cc4e928acf8bb658f991dd532136f3a1 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Repaying interest or principal on Investment Property in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399156-repaying-interest-or-principal-on-investment-property/#post-4619504 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:45:15 +0000 number 8, There are several, but never mind, you probably wouldn't be interested.

]]> d7e483ca0693257a24cf1483a2d0c6bb YoungInvestor replied to the topic Investors in Melbourne wanting to join a monthly discussion group? in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398280-investors-in-melbourne-wanting-to-join-a-monthly-discussion-group/page/4/#post-4614246 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:43:02 +0000 I think I overheard DWolfe saying that she wanted to take us all through one of their development projects. Something about a 3 unit site at Box Hill?

]]> 78879179a0d7b28b87d1b88e01b073eb YoungInvestor replied to the topic Repaying interest or principal on Investment Property in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399156-repaying-interest-or-principal-on-investment-property/#post-4619500 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:37:21 +0000 Hi Tim, No, unfortunately payments of principal can not be claimed as a tax deduction. As a general rule, it is only costs incurred in the earning of your investment income which can be claimed. eg: Interest is a cost of the principal of the loan, but the principal itself is not a cost or an expense.

]]> 2802750c350c6b1b4287a18c6ff5bcef YoungInvestor replied to the topic Developing basics in the forum Value Adding https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399162-developing-basics/#post-4619629 Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:34:15 +0000 Hey Christian, I would love to read it and provide some feedback. I am relatively inexperienced with development, which is probably the same as the majority of forumites. I can tell you all 'newbie' things that it doesn't cover which you might assume that people already know. Will PM you my details if you are interested.

]]> 2edf47c1a103ca04cc8531d2e9c142a5 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Investing in New Estates in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399135-investing-in-new-estates/#post-4619415 Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:28:41 +0000 One word, Delfin

]]> 1807716097f1cde6d5040e6ade21b2b9 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Extra repayment or deposit for IP? in the forum Hi Amie, Do you have an https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399137-extra-repayment-or-deposit-for-ip/#post-4619425 Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:35:21 +0000 Hi Amie, Do you have an offset against the Variable Rate Loan?  (It is not possible to have an offset account against a fixed rate loan). If so, put all the money in there so you are saving interest, but still keeping the cash available for another purchase.

]]> f3a74c0d012873deb525290ef391ea84 YoungInvestor replied to the topic 100% offset account- clarification in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399120-100-offset-account-clarification/#post-4619331 Sun, 14 Mar 2010 03:45:18 +0000 IZ, just to expand on Richard's comment, it is a good idea to set up an offset account for each new property anyway, even if you still have some non-deductible debt.As Richard said, you would put all spare cash into the offset account against the non-deductible debt until such time as it is repaid in full, however it is good to get the structure…[Read more]

]]> 87a1792fdbdad581f3ba445e09ec257b YoungInvestor replied to the topic Interest rates for Development Loan in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399092-interest-rates-for-development-loan/#post-4619134 Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:35:56 +0000 Could also be as low as 7% for this type of deal.

]]> 41ba090293f23660d6fd22561e05c464 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Help - Why won't anyone rent out my investment property :-( in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399064-help-why-wont-anyone-rent-out-my-investment-property/#post-4618985 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:01:05 +0000 it was up this morning!

]]> 2472d3fe09aa663377ecedff022bd511 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Deposit Question in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399069-deposit-question-2/#post-4619033 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 04:59:31 +0000 That sounds quite good then in terms of what you are able to purchase the property for – The only problem will be finance, but I will address that below. WIth regards to the valuation:Who is the valuer? Can the vendor provide you with a copy of the report? If you work out who the valuer is, you can then ask your bank if the same valuer is on their…[Read more]

]]> 312fc5483a33823d720bfa232490ce8c YoungInvestor replied to the topic Deposit Question in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399069-deposit-question-2/#post-4619031 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 04:19:03 +0000 hence I was a little worried about the "current" bank valuation. I fear it may be the agent or the vendor advising the bank's "most recent" valuation which may not be recent at all…

]]> cbe7280de8c83867c84f9e65d2e66ebc YoungInvestor replied to the topic Deposit Question in the forum Finance https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399069-deposit-question-2/#post-4619029 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:21:34 +0000 rtsapstead, Has the bank valuation been done by YOUR bank in the last couple of weeks, or is it one conducted by the existing vendor's bank? As a general rule, the bank will not value a property for you that you dont own (unless you can present a signed contract of sale), so I will assume it is the existing vendor's bank that has valued the…[Read more]

]]> d4eba25ab149d9178414cec38bcd1a19 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Capital loss : how long does it last for in the forum Legal & Accounting https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4399072-capital-loss-how-long-does-it-last-for/#post-4619055 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:56:03 +0000 Hi Chiz, I am not an accountant or tax advisor, so I will certainly allow for any revision of my comments by more qualified people, but here goes: If the shares have now been delisted/closed from the market, then you may claim the capital loss in this tax year. The problem for you will be that, as you pointed out, it can only be claimed against a…[Read more]

]]> dc130f49c6d85ce5a1db11dfa3e0a3b8 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Ben VS the world. in the forum Forum Frolic https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398978-ben-vs-the-world/#post-4618353 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:47:31 +0000 I actually saw an article on Lateline (or Lateline Business, cant remember!?) regarding that issue. Apparently a couple of law firms are gathering together companies who have been affected by the sudden change and are now going to litigate!

]]> 21d8e468da1588bdc5d0ac2182c3a80f YoungInvestor replied to the topic Ben VS the world. in the forum Forum Frolic https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398978-ben-vs-the-world/#post-4618351 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:51:14 +0000 I remember you mentioning something about a failed business attempt – Just wondered whether the superannuation investment stuff was as an advisor/broker (ie: self employed), or working for a business…. but that was before i googled cbpd :)

]]> 29a4b6be7489d5ee8f28a8d6ede6e60f YoungInvestor replied to the topic Where the Australian Property market is heading in the forum Heads Up! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398879-where-the-australian-property-market-is-heading/#post-4617691 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:45:45 +0000 I have spoken to four principals of different real estate agencies in the last couple of weeks, and all have commented that the current Melbourne market conditions "can not be sustained". This is the obvious comment one would have thought, with the real question being WHEN will it slow down? Steve Mc's last e-mail newsletter stated something along…[Read more]

]]> 933773fccef18a5f297dce62e800271f YoungInvestor replied to the topic Ben VS the world. in the forum Forum Frolic https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398978-ben-vs-the-world/#post-4618349 Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:30:40 +0000 Very handsome property BC, and nice work with the kitchen deal!Do you work from home by the way?

]]> 700f3d937c75fc808b030cf069889568 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Which are the best growth location in Sydney to buy first home under $400,000 in the forum General Property https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398821-which-are-the-best-growth-location-in-sydney-to-buy-first-home-under-400000/#post-4617427 Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:32:14 +0000 If you can afford the additional leverage then why not go for growth? If you fund a shortfall of lets say $5k per year for 10 years, but then are able to sell one or two properties after that time and have 6 unencumbered properties left over, wasn't it worth the cash flow shortfall? Now I understand that if you are 65 or 70 years old then this may…[Read more]

]]> 8089d64c3c2e096a3f6c1984209c8173 YoungInvestor replied to the topic Can I get my deposit back? in the forum Help Needed! https://www.propertyinvesting.com/topic/4398911-can-i-get-my-deposit-back/#post-4617933 Sun, 07 Mar 2010 08:49:03 +0000 I would need to read the contract to determine whether you are entitled to receive the deposit back, however you can always threaten to take your experience to another level, which might entice them to give it back willingly. You'd be surprised how quickly they are willing to assist when you mentioned taking them to small claims or going on Today…[Read more]

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