[Matt007Member@matt007Join Date: 2008Post Count: 259]

October 2, 2008 - 3:38 am

Sorry if this has been asked before: but what do those with local knowledge see as the drivers in Bowen itself re demand for product etc? Is it resi, commercial, industrial? Reason I ask is I note a lot of spruiking and articles on Bowen detailing all the 'potential' etc but I'm curious as to the reality of it from those on the ground. I'm in Brisbane and have no opportunity at present to go and visit..if it's an area worth getting into what sector do people think would be sound to invest in or pursue?

Cheers
M007

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August 23, 2008 - 10:03 am

Interesting thread. People make some interesting points all round. 

Jon  yes people have a negative attitude towards seminar spruikers and the like because there seem to be (more often than not) good reasons to have that attitude towards them, for example false or grossly inflated claims of potential income/wealth, grossly inflated claims or plain false claims in regards to the company and it's core business, false claims as to what they can 'do' for you in support or in fact their qualifications/experience to provide that guidance/educationd and support in the first place… they take advantage of people who don't know better using high pressure sales techniques and NLP designed to do nothing but seperate people from their money. As someone rightly pointed out above, ultimately the $2 company and trust based in Nauru is worthless when ASIC or the ACCC come knocking and write another 'stern letter'.

I don't doubt there are one or two good ones out there, but for those one or two there are plenty of shoddy, baseless and utterly deceiptful spruikers. I can think of one in particular who's about to meet his maker as finally he pis*ed off the wrong people and now faces some legal action for fraud and deceptive conduct. Every dog has its day and I will be laughing all the way when he gets charged. I don't think what's being expressed is a negative attitude, I think it's a stance of 'prove what you say is real, prove you've done it and can do it again before I give you a single cent,' which in my book is simply called due dilligence. I dont' call that negative, I call that smart.
 

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August 22, 2008 - 3:04 am

Good advice Amber and Adrian.. only my personal opinion but I think a basic foundation knowledge of developing is also a very good place to start from. My experience with options is lol well documented but that said I'm now in partnership with some knowledgeable people for my main project and it's showing me so very much more than what I originally learnt from the 'expert'..
I'll use options again for sure, but need to do some more learning and one or two smaller projects I think before heading back to a project similar to the monster I've created up north!

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August 21, 2008 - 5:55 am

Hmm … 'land banking entrepeneur' sounds like spruiker-speak for someone who uses property options! 

I wonder if a certain well known property options spruiker is this one and same 'entrepeneur'…..

Good luck with your advertising campaign Kevin.

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August 19, 2008 - 9:56 am

Firestorm_st44 wrote:

I agree with APerry, a good solicitor is what you need.

But I am trying to get my head around how you go about selling that property once you have gotten the approval to change what the use is.  Whether it be sub-division etc.  I am one that would prefer to be able to cut out those that make the promise and haven't actually got the proof of the deal.

Regards

Darryl

Darryl that there is where some problems arise with the people at a certain company that says its a development company..no one to buy the options and last I heard, no money to do the DAs with. Options do work very well IF you have an end buyer and you know what type of prodcut they're looking for, or you've managed to secure a strategically valuable and important site before one of the larger players can do so. This takes a good contact network amongst mid/large tier developers and smaller boutique builders, as well as local councils, which of course take time to build up along with establishing your bona fides with them etc. You have to know who to contact, and how to sell it to them.

There are groups out there who teach options to 'students' and do JV's for a profit split, and the deal is supposed to be that these groups have the contacts and finances to do the DA and then have the contact network to be able to onsell the option to, and that this contact network have high enough opinion of the group and their product to buy from them. Again, this is where problems can arise ( and have arisen ). To the best of my knowledge anyway, and I can't apply that knowledge to all of the groups out there in this space. generally speaking though, this is my experience and understanding.

Of course I could be wrong and I'm happy to be PROVEN wrong and I make no accusations or allegations…but therein lies my quandry and ongoing beef… proof or the lack of it..

I wouldn't discourage people from learning about options at all, but I would caution anyone considering doing JVs or other legally binding contractual arrangements with any group or individual who can't provide proof of their ability to do what they claim. IF they're legit and so forth, then providing proof should be no issue for them. If they start throwing up excuses and reasons why they can't, well.. you can derive your own opinions on that.

As always, caveat emptor.

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August 13, 2008 - 2:39 am

Dr Robert and others I'd suggest you go back to the first page of this thread and read carefully the experiences of people who have already been through all the JV experience with mark and in one case (in the game's post) actually worked FOR Mark and his company for nearly 2 years. if you still want to get involved in any way shape or form with him after that then …. well i won't say..but i've personally spoken to 4 of Mark's former staff members, nearly every company he says he has relationships with or funding from, and many in the development and marketing industry, and let's just say that there was a common thread coming from them all.

The theory they teach is get the option, add a DA, onsell. Simple, effective and has been done for decades by developers around the world. However, big problems arise when:
a) you have no money to spend on a DA and no one in your 'coaching staff' has every closed a deal themselves (so in my mind how are they supposed to coach you how to do it?)
b) no one in the industry will deal with you based on what they've seen heard and learnt over the last 7 years
c) the JV agreement doesn't force anyone to pay you, the one who does all the work, a single cent.
d) there are few if any financiers who will work with you despite what you say in public

I'd go back over the course and remember all the names of companies mentioned and how 'close' a relationship they apparently have. Ring them yourself, see what they say. What harm in doing your own due dilligence. Dig deeper than what you're told in an NLP laden marketing festival. Believe me it'll be worth your while legally and from a 'wake up call' perspective. I can only speak from my personal experiences, and the collective experiences of those I've spoken to, which over the 2 years since I did the course, has been considerable.

simple question for them: Prove all the claims you make. Prove them via an independent source of verification. Prove you're company is worth what you say, has projects valued at what you say and where you say, prove you have successful students' who've been paid out, prove something.. anything.. I don't feel that's unreasonable to ask.

If they can? Great. If they can't? .. your call.

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July 19, 2008 - 11:06 pm

I'm the last one who'll do his seminar, but I'm curious as to whether anyone did any due dilligence on the following:
a) Ed before attending the seminars
b) the overseas investment funds he promotes and their apparent returns etc.

Only reason I ask is because I do recall hearing a comment Ed apparently made that did in fact ring true, which was along the lines of why invest in Aus mutual funds at such a poor return when our market is about 1% of the global one and the returns on similar style mutual funds are so much greater overseas etc etc. This was obviously before sub-prime etc etc, but I'm curious to know of those who've done Ed's material and know what funds he promotes, who's actually gone out and done DD on them to confirm/refute or otherwise investigate their viability? Perhaps you/we/they can pull at least one positive thing out of what appears to be a 'less than popular' seminar spruiker's works.

as a former financial investigator, if anyone is willing to either publish or PM me the funds Ed promotes, I'm happy to go have a looky loo into what they're like and gather some 'current' status information on them.

For what it's worth…
Matt.

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July 16, 2008 - 10:57 pm

Have a look at where the state government is spending a large proportion of their infrastructure budget, and you'll find a lot of it is focussed on that Bowen Basin/Ayr/Central Qld region near the Abbott Point Coal Terminal, and the (what appears to be) new Mt Morgan Gold Mine. I know that Ayr has just had a major residential development approved (500 home sites) with more to come. Surrounding areas are starting to notice too now that government has got hold of some huge parcel of land around Abbot Point (in the region of 1500ha or something like that), so people are saying now "gee we may need to be close to all this"..
Depends on what kind of investor you are and what view you take. I personally look at where government is spending millions of dollars on new roads, new transport nodes, new water/power etc. I then look at the mines and energy spending, and then finally look at where the larger develpers are investing their time and money. A combination of those factors will usually (and I qualify that by saying do your own research) suggests that there is a lot of interest and potential growth in an area. Central and North Qld are still emerging in a lot of ways, some sectors have peaked, some are just starting to become interesting.

Ultimately its your choice where you go and what you do, but good luck with whatever that may be.
M007

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July 15, 2008 - 9:31 am

Hi,
just wanted to respond to some of the responses here – for better or worse, my first property option/development is a 20Ha industrial site in north qld, in amongst all the mining activity and the Abbot Point Coal Terminal. Given the current industrial prices in Townsville( this is just south of there), the availability of industrial land (virtually none), the infrastructure spending and mining activity in the region, I do believe it to be in a good location.

So I guess you could say in for a penny in for a shedload of land. I recognise the small steps first idea, and under perhaps different circumstances would've taken that approach. That said, I have what I have and intend to do my utmost to make it work.

Its one helluva introduction to the whole game but i've learnt a lot throughout the process thus far, and now I have two goals, both are acceptable regardless of the direction:
a) is to sell the option and yes it's on the market via a few agents,
b) seek out a possible JV partner to do the DA for a profit split, if possible.

So, while I readily accept and recognise the many posts about start small, save this do that, my current situation is now what it is, and I intend to do whatever is within my sphere of influence to get the desired outcome, which is of course to sell it at the right price. I had considered seeking out more properties to work with, but I think I am better served making this one work first, then focussing on expanding.

Thanks
Matt.

Thanks for your reply,
Matt.

PS that may answer the questions about 'what's in it for a coach'. I'll happily JV something so I can learn and share the profit. More than that I won't discuss in an open forum. No offence.

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July 15, 2008 - 4:36 am

Corporate Monkey: sounds like the Massland model, which i have some experience in, and I can tell you first hand what they tout and what Rolton speaks of is NOT how it really is. You realistically need a 24 month option, especialy in this current market, you need a list of buyers who want the product, you need some good consultants on board who can get your DA within the specified time frame, and you need a lot of time to make it work. and you also need to find someone who doesn't really know what they've got. Very few people out there will accept $1K or even $5K as an option fee, most want non refundable of at least 1% of the strike price. You can do it but its nowhere near as easy as Massland et al purport it to be.

My lessons learnt from my experience so far is:
a) I'm never going near Massland again. Ever.
b) Establish your network of buyers, consultants, agents etc first otherwise you'll be left holding an option that no one wants
c) make sure what you're proposing for the site has an established, current and very real demand, or you'll end up with the same scenario as b)
d) Make sure you get accurate and more importantly realistic (not inflated or plain untrue) figures for your feasibility, both for the civils/development costs and the marketing/sales costs/value of the end product.
e) Make sure your JV partner (if you're going to use one) is well connected and respected in the market place. No point in JV'ing with someone no one will buy from.

Good luck with your project.

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July 8, 2008 - 9:16 am

Dear All, thankyou all for your time and the generous responses you have posted thus far. As someone pointed out i've given little to no detail other than venting frustration and disappointment. In that regard I guess misery loves company and I should have provided more info.
the purpose of my post was I guess as much to see if i could find some honest, down to earth and 'real' people rather than these NLP black belt sell you anything types..
Firstly all of you make good points about forgetting seminars and getting out there and doing my own research. I guess in a manner, this is my research, or at least the start of it. I have definitely reached that point, and as someone rightly pointed out, turning a frown upside down i can use the info i did learn in these seminars and put it to use in teh grand scheme of things.

Secondly, I have had IPs in the past, one 'wrap' and one buy and hold, both of which I lost thanks to some unfortunate circumstances arising out of a combination of bull put spread trading and a bad choice of employer. I still however have a small unit in Paddington in Brisbane that I share ownership with the bank with..

I am employed full time on a decent salary (thanks to some negotiating in recent times) so probably have reasonable borrowing power for IPs again. I am not adverse to regional investment and have had property in Central Qld previously.

All in all things are NOT bad, but I am despondent about the whole seminar/wealth creation/NLP ninja type circuit in which i've been caught up over the last few years. No longer. I'll have to decide what to do next at this point, but my interest in IP and property developing remains strong and i fully intend to progress both areas and seek a sound mentor/guide if possible as well.

Thanks all again for your kind words and frank input.
Matt.

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July 4, 2008 - 2:48 am

Is that a question or a statement?

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July 2, 2008 - 12:18 am

whats the blueprint all about? Can anyone give me an overview ? i've not heard of it before..

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July 1, 2008 - 10:41 am

Ok I think I should clarify something for anyone reading my post. I'm not trying 'pick anyone's brains' or get something for nothing, thus my offer to JV projects in return for knowledge. These are details i would discuss with an interested party in private only. I'm not out here for a free ride or otherwise, just trying to find someone real, ethical, honest and experienced who's willing to share their knowledge rather than do nothing but take money and upsell.
hope this clears some aspects of my post up.
Thanks again
Matt.

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July 1, 2008 - 12:45 am

Hi Frosty. done a few share trading and property investment/options courses. some of the info is quite valid, but nowhere near as being as easy, profitable or risk free as the spruikers say. lost a lot of money believing the hype, and worse, lost a lot of time. In fairness I did learn a lot but mostly through going out there and doing it rather than simply believing what I was told and going blindly into the breach so to speak.
Biggest lesson in my personal opinion is this: don't believe the hype and claims the spruikers make, get indpendent proof of the claims they're making before giving them any money. Do your due dilligence. If they're legitimate they should have no problems in showing proof of their claims. I don't mean some flashy website, but documentation that's legally binding, auditable etc. And don't fall for the old "oh you must have the wrong mindset" bullshi* either as many of them will throw at you when you start asking probing questions…
anyway, I could go on like this for hours..
That said I truly hope to find an experienced property developer who will assist me in my journey.
Thanks
Matt

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June 24, 2008 - 9:48 pm

Hi folks, I can't speak to Carly Crutchfields course as i've never done it, seen it or met her so have no idea, although I do see more positive feedback on her than I do anyone else these days.
Let me be clear, i'm not formally accusing Massland of fraud or anything, I'm simply saying if someone is making extraordinary claims, make sure those claims are real, valid and true. Get proof. dont' get sucked into the NLP marketing techniques and go forking over thousands of dollars. Do your own research in the industry, Ask questions, and do NOT fall into the hype.
Options themselves are indeed a powerful tool, and they CAN work in certain circumstances, but they do take time, effort, and in many cases money to complete. I do also think they require some good background knowledge of the development industry as a whole and that takes time.
Again, i am no tpublicly making any accusations, but let's just say I am very pleased NOT to be associated with Massland, and I have met an ever increasing number of people who feel the same. One can begin to wonder why that is.
If you want to email me, do so at [email protected]
and put property options in the header so I don't spam you!
cheers,
Matt

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June 23, 2008 - 4:52 am

Pretty sure you can send PM's here..

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June 22, 2008 - 11:36 am

Depends on who you did the 'seminar' with and what promises/claims of results they made. I've been doing options for about 18 months, did the Massland course, and thankfully now have nothing to do with them. Options are NOT easy, they take a long time to learn, longer to do, and require a lot of consistent work. My advice to you based on my personal experience is ask the following questions of teh seminar spruiker in question:

can they prove the claims they're making. Eg: if they say they're worth $500Million get some accountants statements to prove it and make sure they're not just renting somewhere and living upstairs (doesn't sound liek someone worth $500 Million does it?),

if they say they have 100 projects on the go, get them to show you some proof of that and I mean independent proof.

If they say the industry will deal with them and they're all good mates etc, prove it, have one of them provide a letter of reference, and most imortantly,

if they say they have many successful students then ask to speak with one of them. Find out if any of them have actually been paid out more importantly, and what kind of support they get.

Find out if the 'coaches' they say will mentor you through things have actually done any deals themselves and are speaking from experience, and if not, how can they mentor you through anything..

If  they use big names as references ask them if those names are contractually bound to their 'system' and if so for how long, see some evidence that its not just "oh well we were in the same room as them once".

My experience has been that there are some out there saying they're a development company who do 'seminars' on teh side, when in reality it's the opposite – they're a seminar company trying to do developments and their primary source of income is upselling you into 'mentoring' programs. I'd ring around the industry, mention the name of the group you're dealing with, and find out what the industry thinks. I've had some very, very interesting conversations over the last year or so. Options themselves are good, but they require a very in depth knowledge of the developing industry, very good contacts and a lot of patience and experience. My advice is tread very carefully, ask a lot of questions, get a LOT of proof that you're not just being seperated from your money and left out to dry.

Best of luck.

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May 31, 2008 - 7:28 am

edited own post because i really couldn't be bothered dealing with the tanty's and explaining how to read what was actually said rather than what people want to see…

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May 31, 2008 - 7:28 am

edited own post because i really couldn't be bothered dealing with the tanty's and explaining how to read what was actually said rather than what people want to see…