All Topics / The Treasure Chest / List Why Property Beats Shares

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 61 total)
  • Profile photo of ErikaErika
    Member
    @erika
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 151

    What a great topic I have always loved arguements between 2 passionate people who think their way is the only right way.
    Just for the arguement we have property and shares and we use our shares to generate our income as well as some buy and hold ones and our property to increase our asset base ie capital gain.We generate our income using options which return at present about 3% a month.It used to be as high as 6-7%/mth.
    One more thing you say that property is always worth something but I remember seeing things on today tonight and ACA about being able to get land in some small towns for free because the owners couldnt sell it and they didnt want to pay rates anymore. Isnt the main thingis to do your due diligence in relation to any thing you buy. I am sure some people who bought into inner city appartments are sitting on a loss.

    The other thing about most millionaires being property think of all the rich people who come to mind like rupert M. and kerry P. they own shares
    who is the most prominent property ower in Aust?
    Keep up the aurgument its great reading

    Erika[:D]

    Profile photo of Scarecrow7Scarecrow7
    Member
    @scarecrow7
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 59

    Hi everyone,

    Just checking in briefly at work so will keep it brief. Thanks for all that feedback some of you, MiniMogul etc have contributed heaps. Will read thoroughly when i have the chance.

    Noted some who commented that the Property vs Shares is a recurring debate, and often the suggestion is to do a bit of both ie diversify. To freshen the debate further, I want to find out from experienced people how they have fared when they:

    1) Diversified into shares (perhaps out of their circle of competence)

    vs

    2) Diversifying within property
    ie house, land, retail/commercial, offices, across states/countries etc

    whether they would have been better overall sticking to property or have benefited from balancing up with shares.

    Thanks

    Profile photo of gettingtheregettingthere
    Member
    @gettingthere
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 10

    Ive been to many property seminars and read many books on the topic. It is quite clear to me that the people holding the seminars and writing books all learn fom eachother and simply repeat or refrase what they have learnt, just like going to school and there id nothing wrong with that. If A+B=C They are not out there reinventing the wheel. There are proven strategies out there which can and have worked. If i was a dynamic speaker, and spent the time and money, i could probably put together a powerful seminar to blow the minds of the average person where they would be ready to sign up for any course. These seminars and courses are obviously a large part of the income stream for these people and without that income, id like to see how many properties they would actually have just by investing alone.

    quote:


    G’day Crashy,

    It appears you have a wealth of Knowledge on the Share Market, and I must admit my knowledge base is very limited and I’d been keen to do a course to give me a better unerstanding of the market.

    I visited your website, but was surprised by the highly critical views you have of property and those whom conduct seminars to pass on their knowledge….

    ” These people have no formal qualifications, and usually everything they say is a lie.”

    Pretty harsh words, do you have any evidene to support this claim? If so I’d be interested to hear it, as I certainly dont want to waste my $1000 – $2500 to attend a property course if its full of lies.

    and secondly…

    ” I could market positive geared strategies for property, it would be a lot easier to sell. If I did that though, I could guarantee that all of my students would either lose money or not be able to use the knowledge.”

    You believe that all your students would actually lose money on property investments??

    How can so many property investors be getting it wrong?

    Just a thought……

    Cheers,

    Battz


    Profile photo of JoffJoff
    Member
    @joff
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 50

    Hi all,
    Sheesh! talk about flog a subject to death.
    Good reading but.
    Anyway my property investing has always been about making money for my retirement, not any preference as an investing strategy over any other type.It just happen to fit the times.

    To that end it has been very good ( who could have failed in the last five years?.
    But I decided earlier this year to hold all but one my existing props ,use the CG from the one i sold to concentrate on share investing.

    Its been a real learning curve, but with the help of a good broker I believe I am now better placed to manage any flucuations in the economy.

    The good thing about shares is the option of investing your money accross a wide range of industries and assett classes, thus smoothing out the bumps along the way.
    Property has had an amazing ride for the last few years, but we all know it was unsustainable at it’s rate of growth.

    Just look at the amount of posts from people looking for +geared IP’s.They are rare now because we the investors have gobbled them all up and helped keep rents low by offering so many more props for rent.

    This is not to say that property investing is dead for wealth creation,there are still opportunities out there, but the heyday’s are over for a while.
    There are other ways to invest,and while I intend to keep my IP’s for the long term, now another journey begins.
    Good luck everybody
    joff

    Profile photo of insiderinsider
    Member
    @insider
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 64

    Warren Buffett does not sell the stock. He will only sell the stock if the fundamentals of the business have changed, not if the price has gone up.

    Matt, I ask you this, what has happened to the price of the stock once you find out the fundamentals have changed?? The directors know b4 the public which means the price has already declined significantly eg. ENRON was still fundamentally O.K. until the collapse.

    ‘Warren Buffett did not just buy stocks. He was the majority share holder so he could go in and build the company that’s why he is so rich. Mum & dads & average investors that use this technique cannot be majority share holders.’

    I still haven’t heard you name one successful fundamentalist share holder bar warren buffet.

    We generate our income using options which return at present about 3% a month.It used to be as high as 6-7%/mth.

    I don’t to be a stick in the mud, but a lot of wealth guru’s promote option writing as a no risk venture. I presume when you say you write options you are writing covered calls. My question is this – would you write a naked put option??

    We will further this dicussion once the above has been answered.

    Profile photo of insiderinsider
    Member
    @insider
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 64

    Joff – You say that you are now on your way thanks to advice from your broker. Mate your broker will not make you rich, otherwise he wouldn’t be sitting there behind his desk. The only way to do it is educate yourself of seek out a private trader with a long track record of successful year trading. You would also want to have some understanding of there trading methodology. The only problem is entry level is about 1 million. Time to start studying :)

    Profile photo of Traci-leeTraci-lee
    Member
    @traci-lee
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 21

    Hi Guys,

    Being sorta new to investing in general, hense the “newbie” status, I think the key to any investing strategy is Education. My main motivation for starting my investment portfolio in property was the comfort that;
    Even though property can go up and go down, it can never actually become worth Zero.
    In the future I intend to examine share investing as to balance the whole portfolio but with a great deal of education in between.
    Traci.

    Profile photo of ez-rentez-rent
    Member
    @ez-rent
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 139

    This i can’t resist..

    quote:


    MAtt I knew someone was going to bring warren buffet into the picture. If you can try and tell me about another very successful (multi-millionaire) who uses fundamental analysis successfully.


    John Marks Templeton
    Peter Lynch
    John Neff
    Mario Gabelli
    Walter Schloss
    Tom Knapp
    Bill Ruane (Sequoia fund)
    Rick Guerin
    Stan Perlmeter
    The directors of Tweedy, Brown and Company, a US fund manager using Ben
    Graham style value methods
    Paul Moore
    Kerr Nielson

    ok now lets have the TA list! :-)

    [email protected]

    EZ-Rent. The free tax and cashflow simulator for Australian property investors.
    http://www.ez-rent.com

    Profile photo of insiderinsider
    Member
    @insider
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 64

    You asked for it:-
    Michael Marcus – Over a 10 Year period he multiplied his company account 2500 fold.

    Bruce Kovner – In 1987 alone, he scored profits in excess of $300 million. Two thousand dollars invested with Kovner in early 1978 would be worth $1,000,000 ten years later.

    Richard Dennis – Dennis bought a seat at an exchange for $1200 leaving him with a scant $400 left to trade with. He transformed that tiny stake into a fortune which is estimated by some to approach $200 million.

    Paul Tudor Jones – In 1984 Paul had 1.5 million under management & by 1988 every $1000 invested was now worth $17,482. Not bad!!!

    Ed Seykota – Completely unknown, not only to the public, but to most of the financial community as well, Ed Seykota’s achievements must certainly rank him as on of the best traders of our time.
    Example. In mid 1988, one of his cutomer accounts, which started with $5,000 in 1972, was up over 250,000 percent. I know of know other trader who has matched this track record over the same time.

    Quote – Ed Seykota was interviewed by Jack Schwagger.

    Q – What are your thoughts about using fundamental analysis in trading?
    A – Fundamentals that you read about are typically useless as the market has already discounted price, and I call them “funny mentals”. However, if you catch on early, before others believe, the you might have valuable “surprise-a-mentals”.

    Q – Your answer is a bit faceticious. Does it imply you only use technical analysis??
    A – I am primarily a trend trader with touches of hunches based on about 20 years of experience. In order of importance to me are 1. The long term trend 2. The current chart pattern, and 3. Picking a good spot to buy & sell. Those are the 3 primary components of my trading. Way down in very distant forth place are my fundamental ideas and, quite likely, they have cost me money.

    Larry Hite
    Michael Steinhardt
    William O’Neil
    David Ryan
    Marty Schwartz
    James Rogers
    Mark Weinstein
    Brian Gelber
    Tom Baldwin
    Tony Saliba
    Van Tharp
    Randy McKay
    William Eckhardt
    Al Weiss
    Stanley Druckenmiller
    Richard Drichaus
    Gil Blake
    Victor Sperandeo
    Tom Basso
    LInda Bradford Raschke
    Mark Ritchie
    Joe Ritchie
    Blair Hull
    Jeff Yass
    Charles Faulkner
    Robert Krausz

    There you go just a few.

    Profile photo of MiniMogulMiniMogul
    Participant
    @minimogul
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 1,414

    “These seminars and courses are obviously a large part of the income stream for these people and without that income, id like to see how many properties they would actually have just by investing alone. “

    I dunno. I think they have to have had success first to have the authority to teach it. I mean, i wouldn’t read a book about property investing unless the blurb on the cover told me why that person was qualified to write about it. ditto seminars

    Surely seminars are a lot of work, and they could get the same amount of profit out of one property deal? Surely there is some kind of desire to lift others up, from the ones that are truly passing knowledge on? (not the henry kayes!) And the demand for seminars is created by people hungry for the information?

    If it wasn’t for the Steve and daves, dolfs and roberts of this world teaching, i wouldn’t be here now !

    Mini

    ps
    “MiniMogul etc have contributed heaps.”
    some would say ‘too much’ hehe!
    No seriously, i’m a hopeless forum addict seeking treatment

    PPS

    When ‘the crowd’ drops out of properties en-masse and into shares (fears of bubbles bursting and low returns) it won’t be that good for the negative gearing crowd waiting for cap gains, but it will be fantastic for the CF+ve owners. Imagine the shortage of rentals that shift will create?

    Profile photo of crashycrashy
    Participant
    @crashy
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 736

    I dont really care for the fundamental or technical arguments. I have studied both extensively and find problems with both. They should complement each other, not compete against each other.

    “I don’t to be a stick in the mud, but a lot of wealth guru’s promote option writing as a no risk venture. I presume when you say you write options you are writing covered calls. My question is this – would you write a naked put option??”

    Option writing is certainly not risk free. However, a buy-write or covered call is LESS risky than simply buying the equivalent amount of stock. Since a written put is very similar risk wise to a buy-write (dividends and franking credits aside), it is common for traders to wrongly catergorise put writing as extremely dangerous, when of course it is not. It carries LESS risk than buying the stock outright, because the losses start from the strike price and not the current stock price. It is the same risk any share investor takes when they buy stocks.

    Put writing can be an effective way of buying stock at a discount as I have already shown. Yes, some foolish traders go nuts with the leverage and get blown up, but thats not the options fault.

    To me, buying shares and not writing calls against them is like investing in land. Sure, you might get capital growth, but look at the rental income you are missing!

    Profile photo of AdministratorAdministrator
    Keymaster
    @piadmin
    Join Date: 2013
    Post Count: 3,225

    Hi Mini,

    Thanks for your response to each point, particularly so early in the morning. Good points you make. But this ain’t about who wins the argument, or who can come up with the longest list of names of multi-millionaires.

    I reiterate, it’s a matter of which combination of strategies suit an individual, given their circumstance. As others have already stated, they are looking at a mix of both depending on their situation and that of the various markets.

    I raised the point about Steve’s risk on interest rate hikes to incite such a response. Thank you for that, I’m glad to see that I am on the right track. I had attempted to download the extra chapter, but am still having difficulty with the Adobe program.

    In thought, regards Phil.

    Profile photo of wayneLwayneL
    Member
    @waynel
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 585

    quote:


    Put writing can be an effective way of buying stock at a discount as I have already shown. Yes, some foolish traders go nuts with the leverage and get blown up, but thats not the options fault.


    Ahem, you are not in fact buying the stock at a discount if your written put is exersized. Not withstanding the premium income recieved, You are buying at the CURRENT MARKET PRICE OR ABOVE

    In fact the price you are obligated to pay may be at a substantial premium to the current market price, if there has been some sort of price shock, as has happened with AMP recently.

    Nothing wrong with writing puts if it matches your experience and risk profile, but selling the strategy as buying shares at a discount is erroneous.

    http://netvantage.netfirms.com

    Profile photo of xyzzyxyzzy
    Participant
    @xyzzy
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 178

    All this talk about shares and property and guru’s….

    If you want to listen to an expert who has walked the walk and has succeded and is not just a parott of the others in the seminar circuit then point your browser to

    http://www.marketmad.com.au

    and if you need a referal to his ability then ask another bloke who presented at the same forum as him last Sunday … an accountant from Melbourne who advocates postive cashflow properties … a Steve Mc Something

    It’s worth the visit. A number of people have made a lot of money from his advice!

    Profile photo of MiniMogulMiniMogul
    Participant
    @minimogul
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 1,414
    Profile photo of fulloutfullout
    Member
    @fullout
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 233

    wow,
    how come people are still debating about this subject of Share vs Property?
    Hasnt it already been debated for decades?

    The people who plays shares all say property cant compare with it. Either they have been stuck with a few negative gearing ones and got stuck, cant buy anymore.Or they got lucky in shares.

    How come those who think share outbeats property are in this forum?
    Why waste time debating in a forum u dont believe in? Dont keep your eyes off your sharemarket monitor!!

    ***********************
    Discount is King, and Free is grandaddy of all Kings!

    Profile photo of wayneLwayneL
    Member
    @waynel
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 585

    Ah c’mon Fullout! what wrong with a good old fashioned dust-up?

    It certainly exposes some myths, prejudices and BS. (doesn’t seem to change many peoples mind though; hmmmmmmmmmm)

    But for those who listen and learn, its been a good debate. I’ve certainly picked up some useful points about property that I had not thought of.

    Cheers
    Wayne

    http://netvantage.netfirms.com

    Profile photo of AdministratorAdministrator
    Keymaster
    @piadmin
    Join Date: 2013
    Post Count: 3,225

    [|)]Zzzzz…

    [:O] Wha? Huh? Eveybody done?

    Oh, well, there’s always next time.[8D]

    Profile photo of Karl and RitaKarl and Rita
    Member
    @karl-and-rita
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 103

    Hi guys,

    I’d just like to add my 10c worth.[:D]

    I agree with Battz71. I too got hooked on real estate investing after reading Dolf de Roos’s book “Real Estate Riches” which defines in my humble view the basic reason why real estate is better than shares.

    So there…[:P]

    Karl

    The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams. – Eleanor Roosevelt

    Profile photo of battz71battz71
    Participant
    @battz71
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 95

    Thanks Karl,

    I was starting to think I was the only one who had read the book….

    Well I didnt really read it, just looked at the Pics..[:P]

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 61 total)

The topic ‘List Why Property Beats Shares’ is closed to new replies.