All Topics / Overseas Deals / ARE YOU SEEING WHAT I’M SEEING? A disappearing middle class.

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  • Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
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    Did I hear somebody say the US economy is recovering???  And the property markets recovering too eh?? That's right mate. The good ol' US of A. It's bullet proof.

    The disappearing American middle class

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    And of course the exchange rate will revert back to the mean. You betcha!!!

    USD currency over 10 years

    JYN/USD

    EUR/USD

    AUD/USD

    But Dad it reverted during the GFC

    Yes son.. and so did property.

    Ohh….. Does that mean they're screwed Dad

    'fraid so son…

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    Dad…

    Yes Son….

    Why is everyone going to the US to buy property?

    You know how sheep like to follow each each other??

    Yes Dad…

    Oh!…

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    Dad why aren't we paying our mortgage.

    Well son we owe more than we own..

    That's not good eh dad…

    It sucks son but we're definitely not the only ones…

    Profile photo of Ziv Nakajima-MagenZiv Nakajima-Magen
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    @zmagen
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    Love your posts to death, freckle. :) how's the gold/silver/water hoarding going for you?

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen | Nippon Tradings International (NTI)
    http://www.nippontradings.com
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen - Partner & Executive Manager, Asia-Pacific @ NTI - Japan Real-Estate Investment Property

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    Bought another $10k into a silver miner. Of course Murphy was watching and it immediately went down.

    Profile photo of KnoxOffKnoxOff
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    Oi !    freckle

    WE   make the jokes about you guys and sheep 

    it dos'nt work the other way round     ;)

    Freckle wrote:
    Dad…

    Yes Son….

    Why is everyone going to the US to buy property?

    You know how sheep like to follow each each other??

    Yes Dad…

    Oh!…

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    Enrollment for disability income (SSDI) has skyrocketed since the recession ended in 2009.

    …disability payments have been substituted for long-term unemployment benefits for some workers who struggle to find employment….

    Dad..

    Yes son

    Why are so many 'merikans disabled.

    Unemployed people tend to sit on couches for long periods of time and watch TV. After a while you become intellectually  disabled…. 'merikan TV will turn your brain to mush son.

    Ohh

    Profile photo of Ziv Nakajima-MagenZiv Nakajima-Magen
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    "since the recession ended in 2009"???

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen | Nippon Tradings International (NTI)
    http://www.nippontradings.com
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen - Partner & Executive Manager, Asia-Pacific @ NTI - Japan Real-Estate Investment Property

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    Keep up Ziv. I thought you knew 'merikans only have short recessions. Only as long as it takes to change the assessment methodology for GDP growth. 

    They also have low inflation and low unemployment. True. Cross my heart and hope to die.

    Profile photo of kylermricekylermrice
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    Lol, it's called the GFC, largest depression since Da Great One.  Let the media say what they want, but i can't say i don't like the 3.75 finance at the bottom from the Fed.  I still predict stable by 2016 and return by 2026, but more socialism from Obama and things will get worse.

    The cost of living isn't as expensive as OZ, if you have very little debt you can live a comfortable life as a so called poor American. 

    Profile photo of jayhinrichsjayhinrichs
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    Kyler

    Good point one can buy a 10 to 30k house in many parts of merica own it free and clear.. Get free medical by just using the emergency room as your everyday doctor ( emergency rooms cannot refuse ANYONE service… Yes you stand in line but you will eventually get seen if you do not expire whilst standing in line.

    Food is food pretty much nation wide and the US has the cheapest food outlets anywhere in the world we have these dollar stores were nothing is more than a dollar… YOu will eat a lot of canned and boxed food but you can survive.

    Or move out into the boonies and live off the land… Property generally will be much more expensive though

    Profile photo of mattstamattsta
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    I see the same. The middle class is almost gone in the US. I honestly do not believe that USA will recover any time soon. It is still no jobs there, a big debt and very high unemployment rate. 

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    There's a few problems with that analysis Jay

    Quote:
    Good point one can buy a 10 to 30k house in many parts of merica own it free and clear..

    Problem is it's o'seas investors and institutions doing the buying not average Joe 'merikan because he has either a low paying job or no job and too much debt plus a busted credit rating. The scary thing is that the percentage of down-and-outers is growing

    Quote:
    Get free medical by just using the emergency room as your everyday doctor ( emergency rooms cannot refuse ANYONE service… Yes you stand in line but you will eventually get seen if you do not expire whilst standing in line.

    Same in Oz and NZ. If it's life threatening you get admitted to hospital immediately and the problem treated. A few years ago I had food poisoning and was pretty much on my last legs. My wife took me to North Shore Hosp (Syd) where we were told it was at least a 4 hr wait. There was an old lady lying on a gurney who had been bought in by ambulance. She'd been there 4 hrs already and still not treated. I told the missus bugger this I'm going home. If I'm going to die it'll be at home. Next day I was pretty bad. Old girl took me to the local doc. She took one look at me and said hospital for you. Problem is she rang three hospitals before she found one that had a bed. 

    Quote:
    Food is food pretty much nation wide and the US has the cheapest food outlets anywhere in the world we have these dollar stores were nothing is more than a dollar… YOu will eat a lot of canned and boxed food but you can survive.

    Surveys show that when it comes to food or the mortgage most actually choose to pay the mortgage. That I believe is changing as strategic default becomes a more realistic option for those still hanging on. However ,food is still problematic for those on the breadline. For the family living in a car with little or no money access to cheap food, storage and preparation is a real problem. 

    Quote:
    Or move out into the boonies and live off the land… Property generally will be much more expensive though

    They already are. Street people are pretty good at urban survival however the numbers are growing at such a rate tent cities in out of the way spots are springing up in most states as the homeless accommodation providers struggle with the shear numbers looking for emergency accommodation. 

    Tent Cities

    S Cal (Ontario City) http://calocals.com/videos/news-politics/tent-city-usa/

    ONE-THIRD OF AMERICANS POOR OR ‘NEAR POOR

    Tent City USA

    Just a few Tent Cities

    • Camp Quixote, Olympia, Washington State
    • Camp Take Notice, Ann Arbor, Michigan
    • Dignity Village, Portland, Oregon
    • New Jack City and Little Tijuana, Fresno, California
    • Nickelsville, located in Seattle
    • River Haven,[5] Ventura County, California
    • Safe Ground, Sacramento, California
    • Temporary Homeless Service Area (THSA), Ontario, California
    • Tent City, Lakewood, New Jersey
    • Tent City, Avenue A and 13th Street, Lubbock, Texas
    • Tent City, New Jersey forest
    • Tent City, banks of the American River, Sacramento, California
    • Tent City 3, Seattle
    • Tent City 4, eastern King County outside of Seattle
    • The Point, where the Gunnison River and Colorado River meet
    • The Village of Hope and Community of Hope, Fresno, California
    • Transition Park, Camden, New Jersey
    • St. Vincent de Paul property, Fourth Avenue North, Saint Petersburg, Florida
    • Downtown Reno, by some railroad tracks.

    I believe the US government is trying to fix the problem by putting more people in prison.

    Profile photo of kylermricekylermrice
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    Putting people in jail cost money, not makes money.  What's the point of all this Freckle.  Even as lower class it's still nice to be American, even Kiwi's dream of the states…. 

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    mattsta wrote:
    The middle class is almost gone in the US.

    I don't think the middle class will ever completely go. The middle class is often described as the engine room of most economies. The middle class is definitely shrinking as % of population and this erosion is developing as a drift into the under class with very few moving up to higher classes.

    From the above graphs you can see how tough it is within the middle class sector to remain viable. A real risk for the US and property is the potential for this demographic sector to collapse financially. It's already taken a real bruising in terms of declining net worth. 

    The risk for PI's is that many see the middle class home as safer bet than buying into the sub prime market. To my way of thinking the US RE market is is the most complex and high risk as it pertains to Oz investors. Even if one goes long the US RE market in the hope of riding out the bumps you still have to contend with substantial Fx risk. Over the last 12 years the AUDUSD has gone from $0.48 to hovering around $1.02 

    Steve McKnight likes to refer to the 20 year long term average of around $0.75. Two problems with that hypothesis;

    1. hindsight doesn't tell you what's in front of you and the medium term trend doesn't support a lower dollar,
    2. factors driving currency values have changed that tend to suggest the AU$ will retain support (safety status) while the US$ continues to loose support (CB intervention to continue weakening the dollar).

     The RBA (and I believe govt) do not see the strong AU$ as a problem. My guess is that they are hedging their bets against the possibility of a greatly strengthening oil price.

    The energy cost risk to economies is huge. The Gulf States have said they need $125/b to maintain their economies. Analysts indicate Russia needs $145/b or gas equivalent or its economy will go into a nose dive in the near future. The problem with those prices is that many in economics consider prices above $100/b can create significant drag an economic growth and if we hit $150/b again it will invariably create significant hardship for consumers if it holds there for too long. $120/b is considered high enough to cause most economies to to contract and become recessionary.

    The problem is that due to economic problems consumption has fallen and held the price per barrel down. Any conflict in the middle east would create huge problems for everyone let alone the US and jack the price up to astronomical levels.

    Personally I believe we are on the verge of an emerging energy price crises over the next decade. 

    The scary thing about this graphic is that it highlights the US's dependence on oil and that price pressures can only increase as China with less than 10% and India at a little over 3% of global supply are supposedly predicted to grow their urban populations and somehow create massive middle classes that drive cars and consume copious quantities of energy. 

    How do you think that's going to work out???

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/715841-china-s-big-appetite-for-oil

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    kylermrice wrote:
    Putting people in jail cost money, not makes money.  

    A bit of sarcasm me old mate ;-)

    Quote:
    What's the point of all this Freckle.

    Like most gold rushes very few actually make a dollar. People such as you Jay, Alex, Cheeves etc were digging gold a long time ago and know how to find it efficiently. Some of you morph in to other gold related businesses like selling picks and shovels (a gold mine in its own right) to the endless stream of hopefuls thinking that the US market offers endless riches. The objective of the thread is to enlighten a few of these hopefuls that the US RE market is a honey trap if you don't know what your doing.

    Quote:
    Even as lower class it's still nice to be American

    Being Amerikan isn't the question. Ask the guy living under the bridge who used to own a house and a small business that gave him and his family a comfortable middle class lifestyle if he likes being poor, homeless, unemployed, now unemployable and wonders how or if his kids will be able to escape the poverty trap.

    Quote:
    even Kiwi's dream of the states…. 

    It's called Australia ;-)

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    The following graphic is probably the scariest when it comes to middle class property owners

    31% of all homeowners are under water, owing more than their house is worth:

    If 31% of ALL home owners are underwater then the middle class market may have as much as 50% under water. Any market that is 30-50% underwater is in serious trouble.

    I can't help but think this is the next foreclosure wave. If the middle class market was to collapse then the RE market sitting underneath (which has seen price improvement due to the surge in institutional investment) could get crushed by falling middle class prices.

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    Freckle, i am really enjoying your posts and agree with you all the way. With what is happening in USA how do you think this will affect Australian property prices? Do you recommend to hold off purchasing property in Australia for now? 

    Profile photo of nyc88nyc88
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