All Topics / Overseas Deals / What do you think of this deal?

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  • Profile photo of propertybeginnerpropertybeginner
    Member
    @propertybeginner
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 3

    Hi there :),

    I was hoping to get some guidance and see what you thought about this deal – someone I met has suggested a property deal which she will be entering into overseas. The only information that I have thus far is that it is at a resort in Bali, has a projected 20% pa return, 4 weeks stay there every year (not really fussed about this). This is a new complex, being built and i would be getting in at the ground floor. Its in a busy area, one of the top 10 tourist hotspots in bali i think. I'm not sure what management fees are as of yet (probably 10% pa) and I am yet to look at any papers, I'll get them as she gets them.

    I know bits and pieces about realestate, but not enough to make a sound decision without some guidance; I am not sure if this is how I should get into the property market. Is it safe to invest in a country such as Indonesia where corruption is deemed to be rife?

    Profile photo of propertybeginnerpropertybeginner
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    @propertybeginner
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 3

    Is it possible that it is a good deal? And if I were to deem that it was, what would I be looking for? Any advice would be much appreciated :)

    Profile photo of tash72tash72
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    @tash72
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 14

    Advice – don't.

    Frankly, if you 'need' advice you do not know enough about the subject to put your money into it.

    Profile photo of jmsracheljmsrachel
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    @jmsrachel
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 711

    Have to agree with tash72. It’s a bit like never driving a car and then deciding to drive a prime mover. Start small.

    Profile photo of Jamie MooreJamie Moore
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    @jamie-m
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 5,069

    Totally agree with Joe.

    If you don't know a whole lot about real estate then it's probably not a good idea to start off with investing in a resort in Bali…..

    Cheers

    Jamie

    Jamie Moore | Pass Go Home Loans Pty Ltd
    http://www.passgo.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Mortgage Broker assisting clients Australia wide Email: [email protected]

    Profile photo of N@thanN@than
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    @n-than
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 241

    With investing in general if it sounds too good to be true then it generally is!

    Not saying that there aren't some amazing deals and opportunities out there, but they will usually come

    from alot of effort searching for them or making them, and not just fall on your lap.

    If this has sparked your interest in property investing in Bali, I would say no to this deal, spend a decent amount of time researching about property investing and the Bali property market, and then start looking for a property in Bali. Don't ever let anyone pressure you into buying something, especially something you don't know much about.

    Good luck with it all

    Cheers,

    Nathan

    Profile photo of propertybeginnerpropertybeginner
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    @propertybeginner
    Join Date: 2012
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    Cheers for the input :), thats what I was thinking, its in essence a self funding property which to me would make no sense as to why someone would sell it. I know such agreements do exist with people who own suites in hotels, however, its the 20% per annum thats got me struck – maybe thats if the suites are let out every single day of the year. Anyway, I'll wait till I see more, before I definitely say no, but its a no at the moment. Thanks heaps

    Profile photo of FreckleFreckle
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    @freckle
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 1,680

    Go thru the process and figure out all the angles good and bad. Then use the experience here as a sounding board to educate yourself. You need to progressively up your knowledge base as to how, why etc a deal is good or not good. It also teaches you how you might structure your own deals in the future.

    Profile photo of Ziv Nakajima-MagenZiv Nakajima-Magen
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    @zmagen
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 523

    Specifically for Bali, heard some nasty horror stories, here and on other forums. They're very far from being a regulated investing environment. Buyer Beware seems to hold doubly there.

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen | Nippon Tradings International (NTI)
    http://www.nippontradings.com
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen - Partner & Executive Manager, Asia-Pacific @ NTI - Japan Real-Estate Investment Property

    Profile photo of DubstepDubstep
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    @dubstep
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 395

    Hi Propertybeginner,

         I think you have saved yourself from a big head ache.

    Profile photo of mattstamattsta
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    @mattsta
    Join Date: 2011
    Post Count: 604

    why not start with investing in Australia first, and build your skills here, then branch out internationally but only after you've mastered investing in australia

    Profile photo of seqelseqel
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    @seqel
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 11

    Hi property beginner,

    I notice that you haven't provided any evidence to support the 20% claim.

    You cant base you decision on someone's Claim/opinion.

    Have you also been given a break down on the costs of running the business?

    20% is a big claim, and I understand your interest, but no one I know makes anywhere near that profit margin.

    Another issue I see is if you intend to borrow money for the investment, there are not many australian lenders that will give you the money for international purchases..  ie security is just simply to hard. (Correct me if I'm wrong all you lending ppl)

    Seqel

    Profile photo of Dabear1950Dabear1950
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    @dabear1950
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 3

    I would suggest this is a pure time share opportunity. Every where you go in BALI they are flouting these schemes. I think all the advice here is Solid. Stay away from it.no

    Profile photo of M.InvestigatorM.Investigator
    Member
    @m.investigator
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 134
    propertybeginner wrote:
    Cheers for the input :), thats what I was thinking, its in essence a self funding property which to me would make no sense as to why someone would sell it. I know such agreements do exist with people who own suites in hotels, however, its the 20% per annum thats got me struck – maybe thats if the suites are let out every single day of the year. Anyway, I'll wait till I see more, before I definitely say no, but its a no at the moment. Thanks heaps

    At least it's a good lesson for you starting out, and at least you didn't dive straight into it and lose money!

    If you do end up seriously considering the deal again, be sure to double check the vacancy rates/occupancy rate for the place. You might even like to visit the place yourself. I mean if you're starting out doing property investing overseas, you might as well do due diligence on it as well, and see if it really is a popular place in Bali.

    Profile photo of BellaAndersonBellaAnderson
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    @bellaanderson
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 1

    hmm .I think the deal is good but you have to look for other options as wel.

    And by the way is this is cash dealing ??

    Profile photo of N@thanN@than
    Participant
    @n-than
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 241

    Hi BellaAnderson,

    Can you explain why you think this is a good deal against everyone else's warnings?

    -Nathan

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Its very dangerous investing in other countries and even more so considering it is Indonesia.

    On the general investment side:

    1. How will you fund this? Can you borrow in Indonesia? Unlikely to be able to borrow from a bank.

    2. How about the tax aspects? Very complex when dealing with cross border tax issues. You will need to lodge a tax return in Indonesia and Australia – taking into account the Indonesian property too. So you have exchange rate calculations to deal with as well as the general tax issues such as is there a tax agreement between Australia and Indonesia? Finding a tax agent with knowledge of this will be difficult too. Expect to pay much more for your tax return.

    3. Estate planning issues – you will need to look into doing a will in Indonesia as well as Australia. Will an Indonesian court accept a will drawn in Australia? Maybe, but it would have to confirm to the laws in Indonesia. Maybe they won't. What if you die intestate – with an invalid will maybe. What are the intestacy laws there? Who will benefit? What if you want to leave the asset to someone else and there is a statutory requirement that means spouse inherits automatically etc.

    4. Getting legal advice there is difficult. You will get contradictory advice from the same lawyer on different days of the week.

    5. You will pay stamp duty or tax to the lawyer only to find out a year later that the lawyer spent the money and needs payment again because the tax wasn't paid!

    Then you have the general cultural and other issues:

    1. How well can you read Indonesian? Can you understand legal contracts written in Indonesia?

    2. Are you aware of how widespread corruption is there? Are you prepared for the bribes you will need to pay.

    3. Are you ready for the "shakedown"? As a foreigner you will pay more for everything. Amounts will be added to everybill. Repairs will cost more, electricity more.

    4. Are you aware that the legal system doesn't work the same as in Australia. Even if you have a court order it may be unenforceable. To get the court order you will have to bribe at every step along the way. The bureaucracy there is crazy. Even if there is no issues the process for any transaction is long and drawn out. You may have to provide incentives just to get the paperwork processed in a slow manner.

    5. Different concepts of time. "jam carot' or rubber time means that if you organise a meeting at 3pm no one will come until 5 to 6 pm. They will blame the traffic, even if there is none. So you will have days and days wasted just waiting around.

    I went to Indonesia a few years ago to assist an Australian man who had his property stolen – title transferred. He has a supreme court order to that he is the legal owner but the title still isn't in his control more than 3 years later.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Ziv Nakajima-MagenZiv Nakajima-Magen
    Participant
    @zmagen
    Join Date: 2012
    Post Count: 523
    Terryw wrote:

    5. Different concepts of time. "jam carot' or rubber time means that if you organise a meeting at 3pm no one will come until 5 to 6 pm. They will blame the traffic, even if there is none. So you will have days and days wasted just waiting around.

    Lol reminds me of good old' Israeli time (where I'm originally from). I'll take Japanese train time, thanks. If the train runs two minutes late there's a conductor at the station exit handing out official apology notes to hand to the bosses in the office (or to the realtors I'm running late to meet, who view tardiness in a much similar fashion).

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen | Nippon Tradings International (NTI)
    http://www.nippontradings.com
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Ziv Nakajima-Magen - Partner & Executive Manager, Asia-Pacific @ NTI - Japan Real-Estate Investment Property

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