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  • Profile photo of dhillon2dhillon2
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    Post Count: 26

    Thanks Chui for sharing that article. Bloody good.

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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    @british-buyer
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 149

    TO DHILLON

    I didn't read Soros's Alchemy of Finance, but a few months ago I read the updated biography of Soros (I can't remember either the title or author offhand).

    I think you're right about him changing directions at the drop of a hat.  Probably something he learnt as a Jewish youth on the run from the Gestapo. 

    I think his statements (on the new geopolitical order) are more of a wake-up call to the US. 

    But I must agree with Soros that the speed of China's rise is becoming exponential.  I remember just 5 years ago important people (eg. in the World Bank) came up with "astonishing" figures that China would overtake the US withing 50 years (in terms of the overall size of the economy).  It now seeems very unlikely they won't do so in the next 15 years.

    Profile photo of jeff2investUSAjeff2investUSA
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    Post Count: 54
    weathjess wrote:
    Hi All,
    I literally spent all of yesterday reading this topic from start to finish – FASCINATING!!!

    I am planning a trip to the US in April with the hope of buying a couple of properties myself and a couple through a SMSF.

    What are people's thoughts on Atlantic City……….prices seem really good, but looking at the future – I see that they are a tourist spot with casinos etc, on the water – but as the crow flies only about a 100kms to Philadelphia and 300kms to New York.

    Looking at Trulia there are a number of bottom of the market houses that have been listed for 180 days or more (in all parts of the US) – what are people's thoughts on why this is? Is it potentially falling down or in a really bad area?

    Also – there has been some discussion on here regarding the taxes that are needed to be paid in the US – however, when you then transfer that money into an Aussie bank account does anyone know whether that money then gets taxed again?? Conscious of the trouble that Paul Hogan had recently with disputes over where the taxes needed to be paid. Or are people keeping the money in the US and not bringing it home?

    cheers,
    Jessie

    Hi Jessie,

    you really need to do some serious research, there are area’s in the USA that you would not purchase in. Reason is vacancy rates…unemployment figures, economoic factors…etc

    If a house has spent 180 days on the market I would not be purchasing a property like that as you would need to have a building inspection done and then you would need to find rehab people…it is a lot of work.

    Re taxation issue you need to speak with a tax accountant that has US knowledge as well as Australian knowledge because you do pay tax in the country you earn that income however you need to have the correct structure in place before you purchase.

    I am involved in purchasing property I could give you the names of a couple of accountants who could advise you.

    My email adress is

    [email protected]

    Jeff

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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    TO CHUI

    I'm a bit worried about China's property market overheating.  That's not to say it might not double in prices, but even at today's levels property is unaffordable for 90% of the population.

    But China is breaking a lot of records these days, and going into unchartered territory.  Never before have so many Far East Asians (with their unique value system that has historically put a lot of emphasis on property values) been catapulted into the middle class at such a high rate.  Ultimately, one of the following 2 things must happen:

    A. Chinese (incl. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore) will redefine the levels to which property can rise, creating an island of extreme property prices in Far East Asia.  This will have a trickle-down effect, making all countries near to China (geographically or economically) experience similarly property high prices.

    B. China will experience a boom-bust like Japan did. 

    At the current levels of Chinese property, I don't think B is likely to occur.  Yet if there are further rises (ie. faster than people's incomes) then a crash becomes quite probable.

    Right now, I think there is about a 70% likelihood of A happening, and 30% likelihood of B.  Therefore, I'm planning to sell 30% of my Chinese properties and invest that money in the US (I will do so gradually over the next 2 years, and only assuming that I get satisfactory prices for my Chinese properties).

    Another factor that may slow down (or even halt) my purchase of US property will be the buying and renting out experience.

    As I drive around Miami's middle-class suburbs, it is quite shocking how many abandoned homes one sees (let alone how many For Sale By Owner signs stuck in the lawns).  Except for the very best suburbs (NE Coconut Grove, Brickell, South Beach to Bal Harbour) all other suburbs are riddled with homes that have had their windows boarded up.  One sees this even in nice middle class suburbs, but the worse the area, the more the foreclosures.

    At least in the nice suburbs it seems that the local community keeps an eye on the abandoned homes (neighbours take care of the garden, and the neighbourhood watch will board up the windows and keep an eye out to make sure homeless people don't move in).   As a result, these kinds of suburbs can maintain their standards.  But once you head to a less affluent area, you can see how the rot is already corroding entire neighbourhoods.

    Today I saw a beautiful REO going for 36K.  It is one road away from a nice area (IE. on the "border") and the house has a stunning garden.  The garden was so big you could have separate areas (eg. a pool area, a trampoline area, a BBQ area, each separate from the other).  The previous owner obviously loved his garden and his home (which was large and once-beautiful), but from this house westwards, things went downhill rapidly.  Nobody looked after their properties, abandoned homes were common, people parked bashed-up cars outside their houses.  From the look of the neighbourhood, it was once nice, but probably will never be so again.

    So when you're buying in the US, it's Location Location Location.

    Apart from the fear of neighbourhood deterioration, I also will be interested to see what it's like to be a landlord in the US.  How expensive will maintenance of a SFH be?  How easy will it be to find decent tenants (and to evict bad ones)?  How much can one rent out SFH's, and what will the rental return be?  How high will property taxes be, and flood and hazard insurance?

    All these factors will determine the speed at which I purchase in Miami.

    Profile photo of mojorisingmojorising
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    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 28

    Hi Steve,

    Someone like you who will be on the ground and living there and managing their own proerties can obviously make the best purchase decisions and make the most cashflow. But for an investor planning to buy form overseas and rent out without being there do you think going for properties within a condo development which has an onsite building manager would be better than an buying a private house? The thought of my property standing by itself unattended with no active property manager (they don't seem to do property management with the same hands on approach as in Australia) makes me nervous. Squatters would be a worst case scenario – is that common from what you've heard?

    Profile photo of TassieJHTassieJH
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    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 41

    Very philosophical guys…and interesting.

    But back at the main topic of MIAMI ad(VICE) Steve how is this week progressing for on the quest for a SFH to inhabit with the family?

    The tales of intrigue and skulduggery have at sitting close to our LCD screens waiting for the next episode

    Keep up the great posts.

    Tassie

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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    TassieJH wrote:
    Very philosophical guys…and interesting.

    But back at the main topic of MIAMI ad(VICE) Steve how is this week progressing for on the quest for a SFH to inhabit with the family?

    The tales of intrigue and skulduggery have at sitting close to our LCD screens waiting for the next episode

    Keep up the great posts.

    Tassie

    Aha Tassie

    You are most intuitive in picking up that I've been stonewalling recently (going on and on about international affairs instead of the gritty reality of Miami REO purchasing).

    What have I been up to recently?  That is a very good question, and unfortunately one that I cannot answer directly, so as to protect all parties concerned. 

    All I can say is the following: just as a listing agent for REOs is not going to advertise his services thus: "Hey, buy a property through me, because I'll do everything within my powers to make sure that you're first in line (or the ONLY one in line) to get a steal (no pun intended) from the bank", nor is the buyer going to admit he participated in such a scheme.

    Go figure, as these cocky Yanks like to say.

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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    mojorising wrote:
    Hi Steve,

    Someone like you who will be on the ground and living there and managing their own proerties can obviously make the best purchase decisions and make the most cashflow. But for an investor planning to buy form overseas and rent out without being there do you think going for properties within a condo development which has an onsite building manager would be better than an buying a private house? The thought of my property standing by itself unattended with no active property manager (they don't seem to do property management with the same hands on approach as in Australia) makes me nervous. Squatters would be a worst case scenario – is that common from what you've heard?

    I can't answer that, since I have no more experience as a landlord in the US than you do, except that I own dozens of rental condos in 4 different cities in China, which to my surprise do not cause more headaches than their income is worth, even though I do not use any property management companies (my wife might disagree with me on this point, since she'd probably say that she's the property manager!)

    If I was in Aus right now, with a steady job and $70K cash, I'd have 2 options:

    A. buy 2 condos with cash (1 bed/1 bath, about 500 square feet each), expecting to get a monthly rental return of 10% minimum, and just using an agent to help me rent it out (the agents charge you for this service, perhaps half of one month's rent).  I wouldn't bother with a management company.

    B. if I had the ability to come to the US for a long enough period of time, I could buy a cheap REO SFH for about 150K (IE. pay for it with a mortgage).  After paying property taxes, insurance (banks demand you get insurance if you want a mortgage) and interest, you'd probably just break even each month once you've rented it out.  Since you've only purchased one SFH, I'd try to manage it myself (rent it out using Craig's List, and give the tenant a discount for agreeing to look after the garden).  You can also write into the contract that minor repairs must be handled by the tenant, and for major repairs he must find a contractor, but you'll pay.

    You could pull off A without coming to the US (provided you have someone you trust to assist with the purchases), but for B you'd probably need to come yourself (to get the mortgage).

    The advantage of A is you'll get a good solid rental income, and less can go wrong with the properties (though don't forget you'll be managing 2 condos, as opposed to 1 SFH).  The advantage of B is you've purchased twice as much property (in $ terms) so you stand to gain twice as much in capital gains.

    I know I haven't said anything you don't know, but just thought I'd clarify the issue for you.

    I don't think there's any chance you'd have people squatting in your SFH.  Squatters only move into abandoned homes that have been sitting unattended for years.

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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    I was just "hanging" with my new brothers, a small group of realtors with questionable morals who happen to be listing agents for REOs.

    The phone kept ringing, and each time it was about the same property: a 3 bed, 2 bath SFH in Little Haiti (not one of Miami's better suburbs, to say the least).  The bank is asking 29K, but the offers have all been coming in between 30 and 35K.  I've seen the pics and the property is in good condition, no work needed except installing stove, fridge etc.   I enquired as to the huge interest, and this is what I heard:

    New York investors (rich men who've made a fortune as slum lords) love to buy just this kind of house.  They get it ready to pass Section 8 standards (which apparently isn't too difficult, so long as the house is in OK condition) and then they stick a "for rent" sign on the lawn.  They will find tenants quite easily, all of whom have qualified for Section 8 (the government welfare program that pays poor people's rent for them).  This kind of house can be rented out for at least $1,000 a month (perhaps 1,200).  Doing the math, that's a rental return of about 30% after subtracting property tax ($150) plus some upkeep costs, hence the multiple offers this property is receiving.

    Here are some more interesting calculations:
    If you bought 30 of these Section 8 properties for 1 million, after 6 years your 1 mill. will have become 3 mill. and if the property price has doubled you'd have 4 mill. total.

    If you spent that 1 mill. buying 3 mill. of properties (because you used mortgages with 30% downpayment) you'd have to control 20 SFHs priced at around $150K each).  You'd have no monthly income, since your rent will be eaten up by property tax, insurance and interest.  If, after 6 years, the property price has doubled, your 1 mill will have become 4 mill.

    In other words, both have the same outcome.  However, if the property price doesn't rise one iota, with Section 8's your 1 mill has become 3 mill, but with the mortgage scenario your 1 mill is still about 1 mill.

    But with Section 8's you're dealing with 30 tenants, in bad areas.  With the mortgage scenario, you only have 20 tenants, and they should be of a better class.

    But with Section 8's your rent will always be on time (because the gov. is paying) and they probably won't trash your house since they'll lose their Section 8 status.

    Another advantage of Section 8's is that after 3 years you've already earned another 1 mill. cash, which you could re-invest.

    So Section 8's seem like the more logical way to go.

    Problem is, I don't want to be a slum lord.

    Perhaps I'll just use 1 mill. to buy a 3 mill. waterfront mansion and just pray the US bubbles again.  That way I'll get my 4 mill. but without ever needing to be a landlord! 

    If only life were so easy.

    Profile photo of snowy0505snowy0505
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    Join Date: 2010
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    BB and others

    I've read through this thread over the last couple of days with great interest. Lots of great info and insight for someone who is considering going down this path.

    British Buyer wrote:
    The only way to go forward, as far as I can see, is to figure out how to track down every large REO listing agent in Miami.   Since they're going to be your buyer's agent, they'll illegally yet happily share inside info with you, and the only reason you'll be outbid is if you're not willing to better the offer made by some outside bidder.

    I really like this approach but you mentioned earlier that your realtor offered to find and sign up tenants for any property you purchased so I was wondering where this left you if you were able to purchase directly through a REO listing agent? It seems that they have a more specific and limited business as opposed to a 'regular' realtor (buyer's agent) and are not in the game of finding tenants. If I'm not there on the ground to do it myself do I just contact another regular realtor to do that job for a fee?

    Thanks for all the info to date and I look forward to more.

    Profile photo of mojorisingmojorising
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    Join Date: 2010
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    Thanks Steve,

    Most of my liquid assets are in shares. I can turn them into cash in 1 day and an EFT to my US bank account in 1 day. The local EFT to the vendor would be an additional day.

    If I am paying cash for my 1st property seems like that would be fast enough.

    Do you know how fast you need to come up with the cash if an offer is accepted?

    I might look at gradually selling shares anyway and sending money to US account. Don't want to be forced to transact during a bad shares week or a bad currency exchange week.

    Thanks again for the inspiring and motivational commentary on your experiences and good luck!

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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    TO SNOWY

    REO listing agents are always a team, with one person cozying up to the banks to get more listings, and the others on the team sell the REOs (and remain anonymous from the bank, which is why one of them can be your buyer's agent, but the team head cannot).

    Some may help you rent out your properties.  I can't see why they wouldn't.  But actually, if you're intending not to have a management company, why not just rent your properties out yourself (my forner buyer's agent only put free ads on Craig's List, and she found people quickly – on the last weekend that I was working with her she was very happy because she rented out 5 of her client's properties using Craig's List, and made $1,000 on each deal).  But if you're going to use Craig's List you'll need to have someone in Miami to help with drawing up the contract, getting it signed, and handing over the keys.  I'm sure your buyer's agent would assist if you gave a tip.  My intuition tells me that they feel responsible to you and your property since they helped you buy it.

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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    mojorising wrote:
    Thanks Steve,

    Most of my liquid assets are in shares. I can turn them into cash in 1 day and an EFT to my US bank account in 1 day. The local EFT to the vendor would be an additional day.

    If I am paying cash for my 1st property seems like that would be fast enough.

    Do you know how fast you need to come up with the cash if an offer is accepted?

    I might look at gradually selling shares anyway and sending money to US account. Don't want to be forced to transact during a bad shares week or a bad currency exchange week.

    Thanks again for the inspiring and motivational commentary on your experiences and good luck!

    First you deposit earnest money into a title (escrow) company (this is a safe third party account, so now the money is neither in your hands or in the seller's).  Earnest money can be from 1K to 10K.

    After your offer has been chosen, you'll probably be asked to pay a second, and larger deposit (perhaps up to 20% of the total price).

    On closing day (which can be anywhere from 1 to 6 weeks after your offer was accepted) you must come up with the total amount.  It's best to make the closing date more than 4 weeks after your offer gets accepted, since that's how long it'll take you to apply for a mortgage.

    Profile photo of mojorisingmojorising
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    Thanks Steve,

    makes sense – that is pretty much identical to the Australian process

    Profile photo of klimmyklimmy
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    Hi All, I just received HSBC application form to open an account in USA. If anyone wants me to email you the form, pls PM me. Cheers, Kev

    Profile photo of white_goodmanwhite_goodman
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    klimmy wrote:
    Hi All, I just received HSBC application form to open an account in USA. If anyone wants me to email you the form, pls PM me. Cheers, Kev

    fo sho…

    yeh hook us up if you can, cheers

    Profile photo of mojorisingmojorising
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    Hi Kev,

    Please send me a copy also. I spoke to HSBC call centre on Friday and they promised I would have a PDF by close of business. Nothing so far

    email addy sent by pm

    thanks

    Profile photo of James2118James2118
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    One of my main concerns with Florida is the vacancy rates. I have a query and to be honest I am afraid of looking a bit idiotic asking it, because I am sure the answer is very obvious.

    But nonetheless, my main query is, where have all the people gone that used to live in all the houses that are now vacant, not just necessarily the rental ones without tennants, but all the other ones which have been left and foreclosed on.

    I had a look at the population growth and although it has not been overly strong, it still sits at over 0.5% in Florida (Australia is at about 1.0%). The number of new houses is at its lowest that I can see on the records (new housing units at 800,000) , which date back to 1968.

    Speaking USA in general, the growth rate was around 0.9%, which leads to 2.76 million more people a year (Population of 307,000,000). That would lead to 3.4 people per housing unit. I would assume the average number would be around the 3 mark, so just looking at those simple numbers, it would seem to me that the vacancy rates of properties would be decreasing as oppose to increasing.

    I saw an article (link below)  that stated 1 in 9 housing units are vacant across USA and also I was just thinking where have all the people gone.

    Like I said I am sure there is a simple explanation to this but if someone could explain it to me that would be greatly appreciated.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2009-02-12-vacancy12_N.htm 

    Thanks

    James

    Profile photo of British BuyerBritish Buyer
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     IT SEEMS THERE'S NO RUSH.  2011 SHOULD BE A GOOD YEAR FOR REO BUYERS:

    (Reuters) – The shadow supply of homes set to hit the U.S. housing market jumped more than 10 percent from a year earlier to 2.1 million units in August, suggesting prices will continue to decline, a mortgage data firm estimated on Monday.

    Based on the number, it would take eight months to work through the shadow inventory, compared with five months a year ago, the firm, CoreLogic, said. Shadow inventory includes properties whose borrowers are at least 90 days delinquent or those in foreclosure or already foreclosed and not yet listed for sale.

    Together with the 4.2 million homes on the market, it would take 23 months to work through supply at the current pace of sales, up from 17 months a year ago, the firm said.

    Shadow inventory is seen as one of the chief threats to the fragile housing market that is showing new signs of weakening. If banks swiftly dump the homes on the market, economists fear it may renew a vicious cycle that could depress home prices to levels that would cause more defaults and foreclosures.

    Adding to the problems are errors in processing tens of thousands of foreclosure cases at Bank of America Corp, the largest U.S. mortgage servicer, and other financial institutions.

    The massive failure to provide proper documentation in court has resulted in delays to an already lengthy processes of repossessing homes, leading to a backlog in paperwork and repossessions as the companies fix their procedures. The banks are also facing a nationwide probe by state attorneys general.

    "The weak demand for housing is significantly increasing the risk of further price declines in the housing market," Mark Fleming, CoreLogic's chief economist, said in a statement.

    "This is being exacerbated by a significant and growing shadow inventory that is likely to persist for some time due to the highly extended time-to-liquidation that servicers are currently experiencing," he said.

    What's more, buyers of distressed properties have become gun shy due to the foreclosure processing problems, according to a Campbell/Inside Mortgage Finance survey of real estate agents.

    The poll found 14 percent of owner-occupant homebuyers and 6 percent of investors refused to view foreclosed properties in October. Distressed properties accounted for 44.3 percent of transactions, down from 47.5 percent in September, it said.

    Profile photo of white_goodmanwhite_goodman
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    James you usually find the makeup of housing changes during bad economic times ie more people under the one roof, you also have to look at net interstate migration.

    Problem is people per household data is conducted via census if im correct, and isnt exactly updated often.

    Thats what comes to mind to explain this for me anyways, also probably a glut of supply hitting the market right about GFC time, developers arent know for their timing.

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