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  • Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
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    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    My existing owner occupied property is mortgaged in my name soley, if I was to use the equity in my property to start up a new LOC for a 20% deposit for an IP with my partner could that loan be in joint names or would it have to be in my name only? He would have a benefit to be a borrower as it will be going towards a IP which we are purchasing together.

    We will be doing a joint IO loan for the 80% however if the 20% had to be in my name only would that cause some tax issues on the new IP as the 20% came from me solely?

    I was wanting to get a financial agreement done up to show what we have both contributed as we are not married but would be considered defacto just to protect ourselves. My concern was securing more debt in my name on my personal property and if anything turned sour he would legally not be responsible in paying it if he was not listed a borrower.

    If someone can tell me the right way i need to structure the loan that would be great. I just dont want to get into any messy tax issues later down the track.

    Profile photo of blackhotelblackhotel
    Participant
    @blackhotel
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 140

    When you say buying a property jointly, does this mean your putting up the 20% and he is putting up???

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    you could probably set up the LOC with both names – but why? You will be reducing borrowing capacity and increasing risk.

    It shouldn't have any effect on tax if it is in one name or two. I would suggest you chip in your half and then draw up a loan agreement to lend him his half of the deposit.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
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    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    Hey thanks for the comments..

    He has cash to contribute to the purchase as well. Is it better if he pays his cash deposit on my personal home loan and then I draw the LOC up to borrow the full 20% so my personal debt is reduced and borrowing for IP is at the maximum?

    Terry, I am still a little confused as to why it would reduce our borrowing capacity if the loan was in joint names? I thought it would be a bigger risk for me to only have it in my own name??

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Its probably best if he keeps his cash, then borrows from your LOC. but it depends on your situation. eg. it might be good if he can put the cash into an offset account – on your PPOR loan or on the new one.

    It would reduce his borrowing capacity in the future if he goes on the LOC with you as he would have more debt. (technically borrowing from you will also be debt, but it won't show up on his credit report).

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
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    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    At the moment my loan is currently fixed until April 2012 at 5.50%. At first I was really happy with the rate but I am also finding it is restricting me when it comes to making extra payments as I am capped at $10k extra per year on top of my normal P&I repayments.  I am thinking when I buy my 1st IP to switch to a LOC so I can have my salary paid into my personal HL and then pay IO on the investment loan. The only thing turning me off this scenario straight away is the difference in interest rates. I dont think the bank will charge an ERA as they arent losing money breaking my fixed term due to the low rate im fixed at. I am keen to reduce my personal debt as quick as possible and I have heard a LOC is the best way to do this. Even if i am going into a higher rate would this be more beneficial for me to switch? Standard LOC rate is 7.46% however I could get a 0.50% now and 0.70% when I borrow again in 6 months when my debt levels go over $250k.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    hi J
    Look at 100% offset account instead of a LOC.

    But I wouldn't break a loan to pay 2% more just to use the offset (or LOC) unless you have very large amounts of cash laying around.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
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    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    Ok Terry I take it your pretty against LOCs, any reason in particular why you prefer not to use them? Why would a 100% offset be a better option?

    Profile photo of god_of_moneygod_of_money
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    @god_of_money
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 970

    I would prefer Offset as well
    LOC has a higher interest rates by 0.2%

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    LOCs are great, but they should only be used to access equity.

    By using a LOC to deposit and withdraw money you could be creating tax issues down the track. You can acheive the same effect by using a 100% offset with a IO loan (or even a PI loan) – plus htey are cheaper as GOM points out.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
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    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    Thanks for your help Terry. I'm sorry to be drilling you with so many questions but this topic is doing my head in!! I keep contemplating the pros/cons of both options.

    What term do you suggest your clients  take out when going IO? If i was to sell prior to the maturity date of the IO period would there be a ERA if I took out a standalone SVR IO loan?

    When using the 100% offset – the bank I am with at the moment your MISA account has the same BSB and AC no as your HL so how do third party transfers differentiate between the 2? There is also restrictions on minimum deposits of $500 and a minimum of $1000 to be in the acc prior to it offsetting any interest – where all funds deposited into a LOC offset the interest.

    I was swaying towards the LOC due to other successful investors recommending it but also due to the flexibility it has- the ability to be able to take out a slightly higher limit to work as a buffer for any expected emergencies – untenanted periods/repairs etc. The interest is all tax deductable so I wasnt too fazed on paying an extra 0.10% above the SVR.  I also wanted to keep things as simple as possible and I am a little turned off getting a MISA + HL every IP rather an just one HL. I was only planning on drawing on the LOC for IP expenses – repayments/insurances/rates etc. I would also get stung with DEF of $700 if loan was repaid /refinanced within the first 4 yrs where there is no penalities with a LOC.

    The main issue I'm worried about is what kind of difference it would have on my servicing compared to a 5 or 10 year IO loan?  
    I plan on building a large property portfolio and I dont want to be restricted by the loan I chose. I might speak with my accountant regarding tax implications to find out what she recommends also.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hello Jacqui

    IO loans usually have the same exit fees as PI loans. Not usually any extra penalties or restrictions. IO loans are generally IO for an initial period (usually 5 to 10 years) and then revert to PI, or you can extend the IO period.

    I don't like the sound of that misa account! Don't know about distinguishing it from the loan with deposits either.

    I don't think you understand, fully, the tax implications of a LOC. They are very good for accessing equity, but for the main loan are not so good unless you just treat it as an IO loan. And if you do that then you might as well have an IO loan on the lower rate.

    The tax implications are this (something i wrote before):
    Every time you pay money into a loan this is a deposit.

    Every time you withdraw from a loan this is considered new borrowings.

    Deductibility of interest depends on what the funds borrowed were used for.

    So, say you had a $100,000 loan for an investment property. Generally the interest on the whole amount borrowed to purchase the investment property will be deductible.

    Say you set up your loan with the idea of saving interest and you had arranged for your monthly salary to go straight into the loan. This will save you interest as your balance will immediately decrease.

    So you had your $5000 wage deposited into the loan account. The new balance is $95,000.

    The next day you take out $4,000 to buy groceries and for living expenses. The ATO will consider this to be new borrowings. The interest on this $4,000 will only be deductible if the funds were used for investment or business purposes. In this case it won’t be because the expenses purchased were of a private or personal nature.

    Now you have a $99,000 loan, but only the interest on $95,000 is deductible with interest on $4,000 not deductible.

    This is just the first month.

    You then do it again and again. Assuming you were paying the interest separately and in addition to the wage being deposited you will have paid the tax deductible loan off in 20 months, but you will still have a non-deductible loan outstanding of $80,000.

    A way to have avoided this and still have saved the same interest without the tax complications would have been to use a loan with a 100% offset account attached. All money, savings, wages, rents etc should have gone into this account. This would save the same in interest as if you had paid it into the loan.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    The way I would structure a loan is like this:
    Main Residence,
    IO loan with 100% offset account
    If there is any equity in the main residence, then LOC up to 80%

    IP 1
    IO loan 80%, with 20% from the LOC

    IP 2
    IO loan 80% with 20% from the LOC

    etc
    etc

    If you pay off your main residence loan, then I would increase the LOC on it and set up an offset account on IP1.
    Also as IP1 grows in value I would get a separate LOC on it.

    Make sure all rents, wages, lotto wins etc goes straight into the offset account, and keep it their as long as you can before using it. Every day the money is in there it saves you interest, and the compounding effect can be great. Also look at using an interest free credit card with points to pay for as much as possible, so you can get gift vouchers and save even more interest.

    Further, I would use the LOC to pay for all expenses associated with the investment properties, rates, insurance, maintenance, improvements etc. I would also just pay the interest on the LOC, never pay it down. This will free up more cash to put into your offset account which will help pay off your non-deductible main loan quicker.

    To make it even better I would also seek a private ruling from the ATO in an attempt to pay the investment loan interest with money borrowed from the LOC. This could dramatically free up cash to reduce your main residence loan to nil in a few years.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
    Participant
    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    I wasnt planning on having my salary or rent paid into the IP LOC. The way I have been instructed is to have my salary/rental income all credited into my personal LOC to reduce my personal HL as it is non tax deductable. Then set up a direct debit to come out of my personal LOC to pay the IP LOC once a month to cover the interest. There shouldnt be any tax implications as long as I dont make personal drawings off the IP LOC's. I have read of this method from Margaret Lomas's books and some other authors on property investment.

    What bank do you recommend has the best Offset Accounts so I can compare?

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    I wouldn't use a LOC on my main home loan either. Why not just an offset account? I hope you were not going to take the deposit for the IP from that LOC as you would rapidly lose deductibility, but still have a large loan.

    Look at ANZ, Westpac, NAB for IO loans with offset.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
    Participant
    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    No I was going to draw a new LOC up to 80% of the value of my owner occupied home for the 20% deposit on the IP so I can still claim tax benefits due to the purpose being for an investment property. I will check out other banks offset accounts to see how they differ. The one I have looked into sounds difficult to use. You can direct debit the offset account for the monthly repayment on the one I have.

    Thanks for putting up with me Terry. I like to hear your opinion when it comes to finance matters! :)

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
    Participant
    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    CANT ** direct debit.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Hi again

    I think your LOC method will work, but if you were to ever move out of your house and rent it you would have tax problems. If you had no intention (remember things change) then it will be ok – except you will be paying a slighty higher rate for no reason.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of jacqui_03jacqui_03
    Participant
    @jacqui_03
    Join Date: 2010
    Post Count: 142

    Yeah if I was ever to move out of the house I am living in I would stop my salary/rent from going into the loan and have it going into a normal transactional account or new personal mortgage. I will check out what other banks have to offer in regards to offset accounts as they might offer more flexibility than the one I am comparing it too.

    Thanks for your time Terry, I really appreciate it.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    But if you moved out it would be too late. Your whole loan may be undeductible.

    When you originally borrowed the money it would have been used to purchase the house, but as you put money into the loan this is a repayment. When you take money out this is new borrowings. So the original borrowings used for the house purchase may be rapidly reduced to nil, and the new borrowings for personal expenses may be increasing, so the net effect is a high loan balance with hardly any of it attributable to the house and therefore not deductible. All this could be avoidable if using an IO loan with offset.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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