All Topics / Finance / Mortgage question: Extra repayments or use an Offset account?

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  • Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    @fword
    Join Date: 2009
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    Good day, folks!

    In the last few weeks I've spent time lurking around here and trying to learn more about property investing, and figured it's about time I posted something to the forum. In this case it's a question about something I've been trying to get my head around but still not sure I fully understand.

    Please allow me to introduce myself. I've been working for the last two years in Melbourne and about to become a first home owner. The contract has already been signed and settlement due sometime in November. The intention is to stay at this house for the first 6 months to qualify for the FHOG and then eventually move back with my parents and rent out this house. In this sense, this house is going to be an IP eventually, but initially at least, a PPOR.

    I intend to hold this house over the long term (ie. for as long as I can) and possibly move back into it when I am ready.

    After having a chat to a mortgage broker he gave me two recommendations: a Bankwest basic loan with a very low rate (but not many features) and a Homeside loan that includes a 100% deposit offset account. Initially I was weighing up going all fixed vs all variable. Turns out there's a huge rift between fixed and variable rates now, so I'm going to go variable. I've also decided to go for the Homeside loan because I read here about how useful an offset account is.

    That said, my original plan was to make extra repayments on my home loan as if I'm paying 7+% interest, rather than the 5+% that's required. My main questions are: should I be making extra repayments on my loan even if I have an offset account? Or should I be making minimum repayments instead and leaving the 'spare cash' in the offset? Which is better for the reduction of principle and interest in the long run?

    For example:

    My minimum monthly loan repayment (for payment of a principle & interest loan of $300K) is $2000. However since rates are low I can comfortably pay $3000/ month instead. That's an extra $1000 repayment which I understand will go directly towards reducing principle, turning a $300K balance into a $299K balance. The $1000 is also now available for redraw. Does the $1000 pay interest and as a result attract tax?

    Should I instead be paying $2000/ month and leaving the extra $1000 in the offset account? This 'spare cash' in the offset account, as I understand it, also goes towards reducing principle directly, similarly turning the $300K balance into a $299K balance. But the difference is that the money is easily withdrawn as with any other bank account, and there are tax benefits because no tax needs to be paid on the bank balance as interest is never paid.

    My broker says the effect would be exactly the same but I just needed to hear it from somebody else.

    Thanks, any other advise would be most helpful. Again this is a bit of a funny situation: a property starting off as a PPOR, becoming an IP for a number of years, and then reverting to a PPOR again.

    I've read interesting advice here regarding IPs: using an offset account and doing an interest only loan, but this may not apply to me as I might want to live there long terms and hence own it outright eventually.

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
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    Not sure why your Broker has suggested Homeside (maybe i have an idea) but an NAB interest only loan with 100% offset account would be the way i would look to go.

    There is no actual interest payable on the offset account so nothing to declare as far as Tax time it merely reduces the interest payable by the same amount.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    @fword
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    Qlds007 wrote:
    Not sure why your Broker has suggested Homeside (maybe i have an idea) but an NAB interest only loan with 100% offset account would be the way i would look to go.

    There is no actual interest payable on the offset account so nothing to declare as far as Tax time it merely reduces the interest payable by the same amount.

    Hi Richard, thanks for the reply. Originally I was keeping in contact with another mortgage broker as well. Eventually I failed to get any email replies from him and it was near impossible to reach him on the mobile. I know he was having issues with his server, but geez, this is one of those businesses that shouldn't have that much 'down time'.

    I did speak to my broker regarding interest-only loans, to which he replied that he still considered it better to do principle & interest repayments. I didn't ask him to elaborate, but if I had a personal choice this is what I would have done as well considering this would be a house to hold really long term and possibly live in for a significant period of time.

    However I also see the point you mentioned in going with an interest-only loan: there would be far more flexibility with payments, and if I decided to do extra repayments at any time it would effectively become a principle & interest repayment for that period of time…I'm assuming anyway.

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
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    Yes Interest only gives you far more flexibility as what may be your PPOR this year and possible next year may one day become an IP.

    Why box yourself into a Tax corner when you dont need to.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of KramulousKramulous
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    If the offset comes with no monthly fees, I'd be going for it. 

    If you make extra repayments and then turn the property into an investment, you will be unable to get the extra payments out of the property without experiencing the wrath of the ATO.  While it is an investment, you want the interest payments to be as high as possible (for a given loan) so you can claim tax. 

    Having an offset will temporarily lower the daily interest you are paying while the property is not an investment.  As soon as you turn it into an investment, you can withdrawal the cash to increase the interest (and decrease your tax liability) and it causes zero problems.  The offset account is the same as earning the amount of bank interest; tax free. 

    I made the mistake when I first started of putting in 40% deposit when I bought my first house.  I should have had the deposit of 20% and put the rest into an offset account.  Now that the property is an investment, I can't get my cash out without incurring tax.  You live, you learn.

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    @fword
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    Qlds007 wrote:
    Yes Interest only gives you far more flexibility as what may be your PPOR this year and possible next year may one day become an IP.Why box yourself into a Tax corner when you dont need to.

    The IO payment is an interesting concept I'm very new to. Still have the 'old' thinking that I should eventually try to pay down the loan so I can eventually own the house outright. I'll run this by the broker and see what else he has to add.

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    @fword
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    Kramulous wrote:
    If the offset comes with no monthly fees, I'd be going for it. 

    If you make extra repayments and then turn the property into an investment, you will be unable to get the extra payments out of the property without experiencing the wrath of the ATO.  While it is an investment, you want the interest payments to be as high as possible (for a given loan) so you can claim tax. 

    Having an offset will temporarily lower the daily interest you are paying while the property is not an investment.  As soon as you turn it into an investment, you can withdrawal the cash to increase the interest (and decrease your tax liability) and it causes zero problems.  The offset account is the same as earning the amount of bank interest; tax free. 

    I made the mistake when I first started of putting in 40% deposit when I bought my first house.  I should have had the deposit of 20% and put the rest into an offset account.  Now that the property is an investment, I can't get my cash out without incurring tax.  You live, you learn.

    Looking through the stuffy PDS manuals it appears that the offset account itself has no fees. However the offset account can only be maintained if I had a loan with Homeside. The Homeside loan itself does attract a $10 monthly fee. It's like NAB's iSaver account that can be bundled to a separate NAB account, but the iSaver cannot exist on its own or be used with an account from another bank.

    When you state that I can claim mortgage interest against tax, what percentage of this interest can I claim? I also assume that I cannot claim anything against tax while I'm using it as a PPOR for the first 6 months. But when I rent it out for the next 6 months of that calender year, I can claim those 6 months of interest payments against tax?

    Glad I found this place fairly early, while searching for the house. There's lots of useful info here. If I didn't read about the goodness of offset here, I would have been making extra repayments if I got a payrise, or if interest rates stayed low. I only loaned about 73% of the value of the home, so I should have instead borrowed the max the bank would be willing to give me, and used the excess for offset.

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
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    The IO payment is an interesting concept I'm very new to. Still have the 'old' thinking that I should eventually try to pay down the loan so I can eventually own the house outright. I'll run this by the broker and see what else he has to add.

    Unless he is investor orientated i bet he will have no idea or would have recommended this from day 1.
    You can transfer funds at any time to pay down the principal balance should you wish.

    Loan must have been very small as most client look at the Pro Packages and that has no offset fees. 

    I only loaned about 73% of the value of the home, so I should have instead borrowed the max the bank would be willing to give me, and used the excess for offset.

    Definately

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    Qlds007 wrote:
    Unless he is investor orientated i bet he will have no idea or would have recommended this from day 1.You can transfer funds at any time to pay down the principal balance should you wish.Loan must have been very small as most client look at the Pro Packages and that has no offset fees. 

    It wouldn't be surprising if I were one of the few first home buyers he's seen actually asking these questions. I've even tried asking colleagues at work questions along a similar line and all of them have no idea what I'm talking about. They know that they're using an offset account and that's pretty much it.I had a look at NAB's choice package but noticed it had a pretty hefty application fee and I think even a monthly ongoing fee. It was suggested that I consider the pro packages if I wanted to go full-on investing in the very near future. I'd actually like to do that, but after driving my bank balance virtually to zero after this mortgage, it's going to take time before the next property. So I thought to think even more long-term.It would take me a number of years to build up sufficient equity in the current house before I can take a second mortgage. By then I'll revise all options and consider going a pro package where it'd be cheaper to have multiple loans going at once. For a single loan I thought to keep it simple as possible but not discounting things like offset, which seem to be indispensable.Now of course I'm desperately hoping for a pay rise early next year. I need at least a 5% pay rise to accomodate a 1% increase in interest rates. But if the interest rates don't go up too quickly I still have a buffer to see me through at least until rates start to hit double digits!

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
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    Not sure what rate you are on or the loan amoutn but most clients would get the $375 back several times over even with just one loan.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of wisepearlwisepearl
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    hi fWord,

    I was in a similar situation to you back in 2005 and will share my story…

    I was a first homebuyer, received FHOG, but luckily was referred to an excellent mortgage broker/financial planner, who has keen knowledge and experience in IPs.

    This was what I told her:

    *purchasing PPoR with FHOG

    *planned to live in for 12-18mths, then move overseas and rent it out

    *upon returning to Aus, may continue to use it as IP and purchase another one

    *needed to save money whilst paying off PPoR for o/s adventure

    *I was of the opinion I should pay maximum affordable onto loan to pay it down quickly

    This is what she set up:

    *variable interest rate (damn nearly killed me while backpacking when it was well over 9.5%)

    *100% offset account, with no monthly fees and unlimited transactions

    *have all income paid into my mortgage

    *live off my credit card, then pay it off in full each month from mortgage

    *every extra $$ over and above minimum interest repayments sat in offset account, available for redraw any time, and reduced interest payable on loan

    *when ready to move O/S I took the funds needed out of my redraw. rented it out, and got the rental income paid into it

    *she advised this set up is in essence same as P&I in terms of reducing the loan while I can, but then instantly converts to an I/O when I change it to IP and want to keep repayments high to offset rental income.

    The features which I appreciate the most are the ease of online banking and the complete fee free account, so I can do unlimited online funds transfers. tho i can't do BPAY, slightly annoying, but i just transfer into my everyday transaction account and then straight out again.

    Thankfully due to Perth's boom, I'm not in a great position with equity and looking to rapidly expand my IP portfolio, and eagerly waiting for my broker/planner to return from her holidays so she can get things up and running!

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
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    Hi Wise

    I am hoping he or she didn't suggest the following to you:

    * have all income paid into my mortgage

    * when ready to move O/S I took the funds needed out of my redraw. rented it out, and got the rental income paid into it

    If so you have major Tax contamination issues. The loan interest clearly fails the purpose Test and therefore will not be able to be deducted.

    Let us hope for your sake you have terminology wrong.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    Qlds007 wrote:
    Not sure what rate you are on or the loan amoutn but most clients would get the $375 back several times over even with just one loan.

    The Homeside variable rate is currently 5.07%, and is not a 'honeymoon rate'. No application fee, legal fees $162.50, monthly fee of $10. Loan is 300-350K.

    I'd be very interested to know how to recover the $375 cost (assuming it's application fee we're talking about) on a single loan.

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    fWord wrote:

    I'd be very interested to know how to recover the $375 cost (assuming it's application fee we're talking about) on a single loan.
    [/quote

    Sorry Richard, I meant 'annual fee', not 'application fee'. The pro pack may also come with an application fee.

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    wisepearl wrote:

    *100% offset account, with no monthly fees and unlimited transactions
    *have all income paid into my mortgage
    *live off my credit card, then pay it off in full each month from mortgage
    *every extra $$ over and above minimum interest repayments sat in offset account, available for redraw any time, and reduced interest payable on loan

    This is what I've also planned to do with a credit card. Previously I used cash for everything and only started using a credit card a few months ago just for the sake of building up some credit history. However with the advent of a home loan the credit card has become something that I can fully abuse. The loan I'm taking up actually provides me with a free upgrade to a Gold Visa card with NAB with no annual fee and still the other benefits of interest-free days.

    I'm very thankful for all the advise from the good folk on this forum and also on this thread. Based on this info I spoke again to my broker today and he encouraged me to loan as much as possible (without incurring mortgage insurance fees) and to go with an IO only loan…but only if I were disciplined enough to actually save as much as possible, he said.

    Seems that most of his customers have the habit of making just minimum repayments and not actually saving into an offset account to help reduce their interest. I know myself though…and can certainly cut down the Ebay spending to NIL if I really wanted to, and have done so for a couple of months now ever since realizing what impact a mortgage would have on my life.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Since you are going to move out of the house and rent it, you should not pay PI or any extra into the loan. Best to use a 100% offset account with an IO loan – and use your point generating credit cards as much as possible.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    Terryw wrote:
    Since you are going to move out of the house and rent it, you should not pay PI or any extra into the loan. Best to use a 100% offset account with an IO loan – and use your point generating credit cards as much as possible.

    The situation is a bit of a funny one. The house is neither an investment nor a house I'm going to be living in, at least for the first 12 months or so. I'd like very much to stay there permanently, get down to furnishing it and actually having a place I could call 'home'. But since my old mates are prepared to put up with me for a little while longer, I might as well live with them while I still can.

    The advise here has been great, and also consistent. The info here has been most useful, and I'd certainly be going for an IO loan with offset account. This has already been finalized with the mortgage broker. The whole experience of buying a first home has been a real eye-opener. Neither of my parents have ever taken a loan here, so these concepts would cause even them to raise an eyebrow, but I think I've understood them sufficiently to decide it'd be the most beneficial thing to do.

    Profile photo of StumpCamStumpCam
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    Hi Fword, just a slightly different train of thought. There isn't much difference between an IO loan and a P&I loan in the first few years if you've set it at a 30 year term. If you're going to live in it forever after renting it for a few years, then there's a lot to be said for P&I. It's just too easy to rob the offset account, and with P&I you'll hardly notice the extra payments, and the principal will gradually sneak down after a while.   

    Lets look at year one for a 350k loan. The repayments with IO @ 5.07% will be $1478.75/m and with 30 year P&I it will be $1893.88/m. Your principal will be reduced by just $5099 after 12 months, ie about a 1.5% reduction. This is roughly what your interest bill will be reduced by, eg about $260 which isn't much compared to the $17745 you'd be paying per anum if you were to leave it IO. That's about a $108 difference to your tax return if you're in the 41.5% bracket when you've converted it to an IP. It will increase each year of course, but if you're only keeping it as an IP for three years or so, it won't be very significant.  

    It all comes down to the discipline you can apply to your offset account balance. It's great in theory, but having witnessed my children, (and to some extent myself) I'm starting to advocate the P&I approach more now.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Thats true. No good having an offset account if you are a spender.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of fWordfWord
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    StumpCam wrote:
    Hi Fword, just a slightly different train of thought. There isn't much difference between an IO loan and a P&I loan in the first few years if you've set it at a 30 year term. If you're going to live in it forever after renting it for a few years, then there's a lot to be said for P&I. It's just too easy to rob the offset account, and with P&I you'll hardly notice the extra payments, and the principal will gradually sneak down after a while.
       Lets look at year one for a 350k loan. The repayments with IO @ 5.07% will be $1478.75/m and with 30 year P&I it will be $1893.88/m. Your principal will be reduced by just $5099 after 12 months, ie about a 1.5% reduction. This is roughly what your interest bill will be reduced by, eg about $260 which isn't much compared to the $17745 you'd be paying per anum if you were to leave it IO. That's about a $108 difference to your tax return if you're in the 41.5% bracket when you've converted it to an IP. It will increase each year of course, but if you're only keeping it as an IP for three years or so, it won't be very significant.
       It all comes down to the discipline you can apply to your offset account balance. It's great in theory, but having witnessed my children, (and to some extent myself) I'm starting to advocate the P&I approach more now.

    Thanks for the advice. I guess the key advantage that attracted me to an IO loan is the ability to draw on the cash in the offset account during an emergency, some of which would be sticky to remove if doing a P&I loan. My broker mentioned something along what you've stated: it's too easy to get carried away and make big (unnecessary) purchases when there appears to be cash in the offset account…this is why he didn't recommend me an IO loan in the first place.

    I've always considered myself to be a sporadic spender. Usually I don't buy anything for an extended period of time, but when I do, it's usually a big purchase. In the past this would have been cameras or lenses as part of my only hobby. Fortunately for now it seems the buying has come to a standstill with the advent of the mortgage, and I try to convince myself that truly, two cameras and a bundle of lenses is more than enough for me.

    Photography doesn't pay me anything as a hobby, but on an unrelated note, I've received more appreciation and gifts doing this than while doing my regular job. It's fun and fufilling, which is why I keep at it, I suppose.

    So other than that I'd like to think I'm a pretty good saver. Can't beat my brother, but not bad nevertheless.

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