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Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 23 total)
  • Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    Hi Guys,

    Looking for an accurate way to measure profit.

    Taking all things into consideration is difficult to derive a formula.

    i.e.

    plus
    – sell costs
    – sell price
    – tax deductions

    less
    – buy price
    – buy costs
    – interest repayments
    – maintenance costs
    – change in value of currency over the period owned (inflation), i.e. if the value of the currency increases of a 20 year period as costs of items increase in costs over time.
    – grants (i.e. FHOG)
    – value adding costs

    please add any other things i am missing.

    Is there some sort of formula that gives an accurate measure of profit taking all these into consideration.

    Much appreciated,

    Miike

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    just realised,

    missing:

    less
    – tax if sold under 12 months, i.e. short term, income tax?
    – tax if sold over 12 months, i.e. long term, capital gains?

    cheers
    Miike

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    From a true investment perspective, tax does not enter into the discussion as each investor has their affairs structured differently eg company vs personal vs trust.

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    The aim is to obtain an accurate measure of success on your money.

    Cheers

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
    Member
    @shales
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 325

    Miike,
    You could do a degree in accounting, then some post grad study on this subject, and still  not have an answer.  There are a great deal of ways to measure profit, and the more long term and complex the investment gets, the harder it is to measure profit.  What you can achieve, is comparable measures of profit.  If you measure it the same way, each time, then you can compare the profit from different projects and accross different period of time.
    One definition of profit might be the net increase in future economic benefits under the control of an entity over a period of time.  Ie, how much you have today (as a net figure), less how much you had on this day last year (as a net figure), will give you the change in your wealth over that period of time.  This is perhaps more objective, though harder to measure than the usual income less expenditure, because the income less expenditure throws up difficulties with depreciation and other types of income and expenditure which from a cash flow perspective occur outside the period of time which you are calculating profit for, but in reality are related to the income generated in that period.  The difference in wealth is harder to measure because it requires accurate valuations to be carried out on assets. 

    I'm afraid profit measurement is not a simple matter, it is a real can of worms.  The more you study it, the more disillusioned you become with the possibility of measuring profit at all, and the probability that everyone else who is measuring and reporting profit are doing so to their own advantage, rather than in order to provide accurate and usable information.

    S

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    interesting Shales,

    I kind of agree with you, it would be difficult as there are a huge amount of variables that would need to be included.

    so lets change the formula:

    plus
    – sell costs
    – sell price
    – tax deductions

    less
    – buy price
    – buy costs
    – interest repayments
    – grants (i.e. FHOG)
    – value adding costs

    – tax as single income, ownsrship in owners name, used as PPOR.

    how would anyone measure this to provide a figure to determine if the investment has paid off?

    cheers,

    Miike

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
    Member
    @shales
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 325

    Are you talking about buying and then selling a property within a short amount of time?  You don't intend to hold the property for x years?

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    lets say, under 4 years.

    This is not my strategy, just to estimate investment profit.

    Cheers,
    Miike

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    Alluding to what I was saying earlier, all of my information excludes the effect of tax, depreciation allowances etc. The models that I use include DCF & IRR which, whether used for projects, investments or other transactions, produces profitability data. How you then use it is up to yourself.

    Tax is generally excluded as projects or investments run over several years and adding tax only muddies the results.

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    I'd appreciate if you would be so kind enough to provide your formulas to us on the forum.
    I think this kind of information benefits many.

    If not, can you point me in the right direction of where or how I can find this kind of information.

    Thanks,

    Miike

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    A couple of useful texts –

    Real Estate Planning & Management – Andrew Kelty ISBN 1 876 602 18X
    Property Valuation & Investment Analysis: A Cashflow Approach – Jon Robinson (Law Book Company)

    A little bit of light reading in the latter however the models put forward are practical applications

    Profile photo of norto1norto1
    Member
    @norto1
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 6

    Mike,
    Mate I am very much a newbie when it comes to this but I have done a spreadsheet with some rough calculations on it I would be happy to send it to your email if you would like ,Unless someone can tell me whether or not I can put it as an attachment in this post.
    regards,
    Norto.

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
    Member
    @shales
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 325

    OK:
    Income:= Rent + Proceeds from sale
    Expenditure = Purchase price, holding costs (rates, insurance, maintenance, management), improvement costs, finance costs(interest, fees, application fees), legal costs (stamp duty, legal transfers and searches), acquisition costs (building and pest inspection etc), disposal costs (RE agent commission, advertising).

    Profit = Income – Expenditure.

    If you hold the property over 4 years, you need to determine how you want to apportion your proft (loss) across the 4 years.  Do you want to just divide by 4?  There are a few different ways of doing it.  What is important is to decide upon a way that you feel is accurate, then use that method all the time, so that your figures are comparable.  ROI (return on investment) is a % figure representing profit divided by initial investment, times by 100.  ROI p/a means you need to take your annual profit and do the same sum. 
    S

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    Norto,
    Would love to view it.
    [email protected]

    Shales,

    Thanks for the provided formula's, I'll be taking a look at them later today as I'm in a rush.

    Cheers,
    Miike

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    oh,

    and Scott,

    Thanks for the books, i'll check them out next time I'm close to borders.
    <br /:)” title=”>:)” class=”bbcode_smiley” />

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    You probably won't find them at borders – try the University Co-op Bookshop at Uni or TAFE colleges. (Possibly a library which specialises in property eg Stanton Library)

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
    Member
    @shales
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 325

    I should say that the application of tax is another whole calculation, really.

    You would need to work out the annual taxable income.
    Negative gearing which results in an income tax deduction you may choose to add to your total income for the profit. (ie negative gearing which results in say $1000 a year less income tax really means $1000 more income)
    Don't forget to deduct CGT in the year you sell the property.
    Be careful not to double count depreciation.  Depreciation should be used to calculated taxable income, but not actual profit, as you are selling the property at the end of the 4 years.  You would use either market valuation or depreciation in the profit calculation if you intended to continue to hold the property.

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    That is precisely why you do not take tax into account – everyone's situation is different.

    Profile photo of miikemiike
    Participant
    @miike
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 111

    think I will leave tax out of the equation…

    tax is adds a complicated perspective to it and also changes every year making it hard to really give an accurate comparable measure of profitability.

    Cheers,
    Miike

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
    Member
    @shales
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 325

    Yeah, well it is a given that capital gains will be taxed.  However, I think it is important to consider the reduction in income tax offered by negative gearing, if you choose to negative gear.  Depending upon your total taxable income and the amount of your tax loss, it could be a significant saving in tax and it is appropriate to consider that when deciding how your investment is performing. If your taxable income is reasonably static, then it is fairly easy to predict, however, if like me, you work for yourself and your taxable income could be $200K one year and a loss the next, then it is certainly difficult to obtain comparable information.

    Personally, I'd rather just make money than lose it to save tax.

    One important tax concept is the idea of Pay as you go withholding instalments.  This is the system where the ATO taxes a business in instalments  in the current year based on the previous years taxable income.  In the first year that it happens to a business, it can see the business being required to meet two years worth of income tax in the one year as the business moves from being taxed in arrears to being taxed an estimated amount in advance, to be reconciled when the businesses income tax return is lodged (much like it works for an employee).  If you do strucuture yourself as a business, and you do make a profit, then you can expect the ATO to ask you to pay PAYG Instalment tax the following tax year.  This can be quite hard on the cash flow, so it is worth being aware of and planning for.

    S

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