Forums / Property Investing / Help Needed! / Is property the real answer?

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  • Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    OK, conscription and the military.  I think we gotta get our guys the best stuff, even if it is expensive.  And I agree, conscription could be an excellent character building excersise for our youth.  Bit hard to lump all of the problems of todays youth on the military though, and I agree, no govt would ever bring it in.  Pity.  Personally, I think the gap year idea used in the UK should be encouraged here.  I went working on stations in the NT when I was 16 – had the time of my life.  Got drunk, got into a bit of trouble, learnt alot about life, worked hard and was a million miles from hard drugs or any real danger (unless you counted the bulls and the horses that bucked).  Should be more of it.  Kids living with Mum and Dad until their late 20's – when do they grow up and get some character? 
    I digress,  the military.  Sure, revolutionise the military beauracracy and make the administration of the machine more cost effective, but give our blokes the good gear.  My brother is a special forces commando, recently returned from Afghanistan, and I gotta say they are fighting an important fight over there.  Those extremists are NASTY and we certainly want to nip that one in the bud over there rather than let them get any more of a start on their whole take over the world, kill all enemies ideas.

    Yeah, sure I'm a bit outback based.  That's what I know.  Might as well stick to that, hey.  Besides, our new party is going to need a rural policy expert.  Sounds good.  $200K please (pa plus benefits, travel allowances, private jet (the outback is a big place) and super).

    cheers
    s

    Profile photo of doubledown trentdoubledown trent
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    I absolutely agree that the troops on the front lines need the best gear. My issue is with the big ticket stuff, like planes and submarines. Do we really need these at the moment? Didn't Brendon Nelson (as Defence Minister) by a heap of planes a few years ago?

    The problem with conscription is it lumps all young people in the same basket. I know that commercial news services and the Murdoch press would like us to believe that all young people are bone lazy drug addicts, but the truth is a million miles away from that. Also, in a country with a shortage of skilled tradesmen, doctors, nurses etc, we would be better off creating more places at uni and more apprenticeships. I believe this would serve the country better in the long run than shipping everyone off to the military for a year.

    Profile photo of Sitting on the FenceSitting on the Fence
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    Have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread.  Have had a good laugh and discovered that others are on the same waive length as myself.  

    Can I just add one of my favourite pet hates to the brainstorming list:-

    Can people please get back to basics and take responsibility for their own actions and circumstances ie the push for paid maternity leave for mothers.  Who is going to pay for this?  The Government only uses the taxpayers money, there is no Government money without taxpayers.  There is also not much Government money without small business – who should not be required to fund peoples decision to have children.  In my opinion, there are too many handouts/benefits these days and people have been conditioned into believing that they are entitled/deserving of taxpayer funding – my parents taught me long ago ' you make your bed, you lie in it'.

    Now, how many of you have been tempted to actually check out http://www.Costa-RicaRealEstate.com ?  

    Profile photo of devo76devo76
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    To wind back our military spending is not a wise thing to do. We spend next to nothing on it anyway in the big picture. In truth we cannot defend ourselves except from the constant stream of boat people. That aside we must have a presence and we  must be seen to work along side other military mights. We would be stuffed by ourselves as Australia is a very stategic piece of land. I work for a non military company that was awarded a contract to provide aircraft for target towing as well as other things. And from what we see there needs to be more not less spending. Our assets are dropping further and further behind. In the event of war or tension it is next to imposible to regaing that ground lost. The military is like insurance. You dont need them until the day you do need them.

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    devo76 wrote:
    The military is like insurance. You dont need them until the day you do need them.

    Couldn't agree more.

    I don't know what they need, but I reckon if they need more planes, better planes, subs whatever, they should have it.  Not just a state of the art field kit.  My brother's descriptions of what air support does, and how skilled those pilots are are pretty hair raising.  Can't remember the numbers, but it goes something like this:  You've been caught out after dawn, still in enemy territory (normally you try to get out before daylight, but maybe your prisoner is dragging the chain, or you have somone wounded with you), your position is compromised and you, being an elite, fast moving force, don't have the numbers to dig in and fight it out (your armed to the teeth, but there's only about 6 of you and the badies are gathering some pretty big numbers seeing as they've heard there are some caught out white fellas ready for a roasting).  You need someone to save your  butt, so you get on the radio and ask for air support.  Jets come in at, what 800kmph (I don't know how fast, but they're fast), scream over your head at about 100m (again, I don't know how low, but he reckons they're pretty low), and drop a cr*pload of firepower on the badies 100m away.  There's now nothing much left of the bad guys, what is left is backing off and you can go back to base now.  Now, if you were my brother, I reckon you'd want those pilots in the best machines on earth.  Besides, I don't actually think 10M is an awful lot for one of those machines. 

    Actually, Devo, my brother gives me the impression that Australia manufactures a bit of military equipment, which is sold to the international forces.  Apparantly the bushmaster is pretty popular, and kicks some but.

    I agree, conscription could never work.  But todays youth could really do with some character building somewhere along the line.  Of course they're not all drugies.  Even on this site we see an encouraging number of ambitious young people.  But in terms of turning out well rounded young people, I reckon they need a challenge. I don't know what the answer is. 

    Profile photo of WJ HookerWJ Hooker
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    Agree about best equipment for the troops but my problem is the politicians make the decisions based on politics and their best interest not the troops.
    Thanks all for input great to read , I can see there is a lot of resentment against politicians and their bribery to unmarried mothers etc.
    Keep up those postings, we will get a new political party out of this, I volunteer for the treasurers job. No more free money for the dole bludgers and can someone get those prisoners working and putting some good back into society.

    Profile photo of ummesterummester
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    Trouble with the modern military (and especially consription) is that, living in a time of equal oppurtunity, consripted males could argue (possibly rightly) that females should also be consripted into combat roles. Also, why should the old age groups 18-35 still apply when we are living longer and the retirement age is going up?

    Consription wouldn't work in a society where individual rights are so paramount and you can't take away the rights of a subsection without taking away the rights of the whole of society. Don't have an answer, just putting it out there.

    Profile photo of devo76devo76
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    ummester wrote:
    Trouble with the modern military (and especially consription) is that, living in a time of equal oppurtunity, consripted males could argue (possibly rightly) that females should also be consripted into combat roles. Also, why should the old age groups 18-35 still apply when we are living longer and the retirement age is going up?

    Consription wouldn't work in a society where individual rights are so paramount and you can't take away the rights of a subsection without taking away the rights of the whole of society. Don't have an answer, just putting it out there.

    Agree. Many are getting a bit soft these days. Not just physically but mentally. I work with some ex Army,navy,airforce guys and they all agree that the tuff days are gone. Unfortunately the new breed know that if they are getting treated a bit harsh they just complain and go on stress leave. Very sad.This can not be said for all but it is there in the ranks.

    Profile photo of WJ HookerWJ Hooker
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    Israel has compulsory army service and it works over there. When we get in charge will fix it.

    Profile photo of pipelinebuilderpipelinebuilder
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    Hi Guys,

    What a response, thanks for your comments and ideas.

    My thoughts are that there are some very well educated and people that will impact society in this forum, I think its good to shake and rattle the cage a bit, maybe even play devils advocate in regards to property and wealth creation.

    There will be heaps of opportunities that will come from this downturn and the people that make the money will see things that others wont, dont or cant due to their vision, thinking, attitude and emotional control.

    I am sure everyone struggles with as a investor or business person with this, I do all the time eg thinking and emotional control, fears a bitch.

    The one comment that didnt come through was, how many people do you personally know that are financially free from property investment?, lets be honest about it!!!!, or is i have a friend that made so and so during the boom time!!!

    Tony b you have some really good posts, especially about the price of property and the amount of money you need to make just to cover the interest, stamp duty etc this is one area that people forget, my wife and i discuss this all the time.

    This my 2 cents worth just for the heck of it, I will only comnent on things we have seen or experienced, the rest is speculation.

    I have a background in science, it dosent pay full stop, you can get as many phds as you want you will never be rich, people only pay for people skills not technical skills. Our education system needs to be focused on business, sales and marketing and personal resonsibility.
    In regards to sicence and inventions, it costs too much to put a product from idea phase to final production, the chinese and india can do it faster and at a lower cost, they will control technology long term.

    The retailers woolworths and coles are controling more of the economy than anyone lets on, they are protected, they have hands in everything and they control the price of most items that are consumerable this takes the money out our pockets,  their power is beyond belief and impacts almost everyone.

    I wont ramble on about taxes, we are taxed too much and their is little or no incentive for business to function, business drives the economy and jobs.

    My wife used to work for one of the largest property companys here in aus, from what we have seen most people dont make it, the professionals will and do because they have cashflow, the rest just hope and speculate based upon the opinions of others. Thats the truth and bottom line.

    My personal opinion is this, you need to decide how you want to live, ie how much do you need and what would you like to do with your time then go after it, maybe it  is property, shares, business, they seem to be the main three that people follow.

    Make the cash from muitlpe streams then invest, its too hard now to invest from our jobs and create wealth because ours costs are too high, make the cash, its king then invest, then your safe and bulding assets at the same time because there is no job security anymore, you will need the passive income and cash at some point.

    That smy 2 cents for now

    Profile photo of PropertyQuotesBookPropertyQuotesBook
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    Is property the answer or is just a method to get wealthy that happens for a few?

    A good question and perhaps you could find the answer by having a read of 2008 BRW Rich List.
    Of the Rich 200 on the list, Property was the #1 wealth builder!
    52 – property
    25 – retail
    25 – investment
    18 – financial services
    14 – services
    13 – manufacturing
    12 – resources
    10 – rural
    9 – media
    8 – transport
    7 – technology
    4 – entertainment
    3 – construction

    Its times like these that the sage advice of J Paul Getty comes to mind:

    "Buy when everyone is selling and hold until everyone else is buying. This is not merely a a catchy slogan. Its the very essence of successful investoment" (J Paul Getty 1976).

    Profile photo of ummesterummester
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    WJ Hooker wrote:
    Israel has compulsory army service and it works over there. When we get in charge will fix it.

    They also recruit women into armed roles, don't they?

    I heard that they found in large skirmishes that mixed sex battle groups were a liability as the men always stopped to try and help injured women, instead of advancing at the target.

    Profile photo of Tony BTony B
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    Pipelinebuilder

    An excellent post mate. Makes people stop and think out side of the box.  A few comments on A, B ,C.

    A:   "The one comment that didn't come through was, how many people do you personally know that are financially free  from        property investment?, lets be honest about it!!!!, or is i have a friend that made so and so during the boom time!!!"

    From the Section 32s (Vendors Statements) I look at not many people own their PPOR or Investment property out right. I understand most people are still paying interest on them till they retire and hope to pay it out with their super, hey, what super. I meet people that stick out their chest and say " we made 100,000k on that place" brought in 1999 sold in 2006. I call them the bogan rich. Sure they made money but it was all luck due to timing and the bank lending money to anyone with a head that could write their name. It was not skill or smart investment knowledge. This was the boom time. Now its over. Also you only hear about the money makers not the money loosers. Why do they have mortgagee auctions, its not because the vendor is financially free.

    B:     "My wife used to work for one of the largest property companys here in aus, from what we have seen most people dont make it, the professionals will and do because they have cashflow, the rest just hope and speculate based upon the opinions of others. Thats the truth and bottom line."

    Agree, If you have to borrow 70 -80% of the value even at 5% you are behind the 8 ball. If historically property rises at 7-10% and you are paying 5% interest, net profit is too small for me. Yes "Cash is King"  this means being debit fee. eg Not borrowing a cent.

    C:      "My personal opinion is this, you need to decide how you want to live, ie how much do you need and what would you like to do with your time then go after it, maybe it  is property, shares, business, they seem to be the main three that people follow."

    Its my opinon life style is a choice and a big part of an investment strategy. You are a long time dead and you don't want to be the richest man in the cemetery.  Eg. open a cafe, be there 7 days a week, lock up at 11.00pm each night and be back at 10.00am the next day for lunch service. Shares, buy ANZ at $17.00 then see them drop to $12.00 (have not looked lately) You have no control over the directors or the running of the business. Business, Imports buy with US dollars at .80 cents Aust. OK  great, but try it at .65 cents, your down .15 cents in the dollar before you start. Then no one has the expendable income to buy the stuff off you anyway. Retail is down shops are desperate to sell you something.  Then you have to compete with the big guys anyway.

    Any one can make money in the good, Boom times. But it takes allot more guts, determination and self confidence in the hard times. Getting over the fear you mentioned. Lets not be too hard on our selves we are in one of the most uncertain, unpredictable economic  times in history and its global.

    This is only MPO as we are exchanging ideas & brainstorming. I don't believe you will get rich in the next 5 years on property. In fact more chance of loosing money or breaking even. Some late comers are still hoping to catch some of the wave of 2 years ago and get the high returns. If you buy well and I mean really well, location, price, type and have some luck & allot of cash as well then you can still make better than bank interest after tax.  

    Just one more thought for tonight, some of the most happiest people I know don't even own their own home, they rent. They are not under financial stress or going grey with worry about interest rates or falling share prices. They Spend quality time with their kids & wife and live with in their means. They are certainly not worried about "missing out" on a bloody FHOG of 17,000 to end up with a 25 year bank loan. Conversely some of the biggest pretentious assholes I know have 2 or 3 investment properties and a 2 story McMansion with pool and the RV. They work 2 or 3 jobs and are the meanest, penny pinching so and so,s I know. What Im saying is its not all about making money its about enjoying it also.

    Cheers & regards to all.

    T……………

    Profile photo of devo76devo76
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    Financially free is the ultimate end result that i am sure only a few reach. But im sure many reach a point with there investing that they have enough wealth to make some lifestyle choices.

    Super top up through one or two properties
    Reduced work hours
    Big retirement world trip
    Some cash for the kids
    kids education
    Dream house.

    Property investing may not set you up for total independance from the rate race but it may allow you to do any of the things above.

    Oh yeah i know two people who through property are now retired. They were property people for the first ten years then branched into shares and development there after.

    Profile photo of SHalesSHales
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    I know no one who made themselves retirement rich through property alone.  Re the post with the BRW rich list, I bet if you added all those different business categories together, then business, as a broad banner, would be the number one way to get rich.

    But this thread has taken a slightly down in the mouth turn, don't you think?  Let's brainstorm ideas about what we can all do now to improve our personal wealth.

    I'll start:
    1: Education.  I need to learn more about this carbon trading thing and what those new laws are going to mean for business and the economy.  Is there an opportunity there?

    2: Keep payng off the debt.  Expecting strong cattle prices later in the  year = sell most of our herd and pay out part of the investment home loan.  (This will also lower our running costs, easing our cashflow, as it costs a bit of money to hold cattle)

    3: Community service.  I volunteer my time to teach choir at the local school.  We are a small outback community and they didn't until I started, have any musical activities at all.  It is one of the most rewarding things I do all week.

    4: Grow my veges.  Fresh fruit and veg is very dear here, and mostly impossible to get good quality.  Growing a small vege patch saves me a bucket loat, and, along with collecting the eggs from the chooks, it is a real feel good thing.  Out there in the sun, turning over the dirt and planting stuff, then bringing it in and feeding it to my family.

    5:  Teach my kids about the wonder and beauty of nature.  We bought bug collectors the other day.  My kids are 4yrs and 2yrs, and they are a real hit.

    My point.  Echoing what quite a few of the previous posters have said, QUALITY of LIFE.  I'll keep learning, and positioning myself to be ready for the next opportunity.  But I'm also going to do little things that bring me and my family great QUALITY of life. 

    Profile photo of pipelinebuilderpipelinebuilder
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    Hi,

    Thanks for all the valuable information and insights and for everyone that posted back.

    Personally i thought tony b gave a real indpeth view of what it like to own ip's and the costs involved, people dont think of the basics.

    Heres my 2 cents worth for the sake of it, I think its worthwhile to think about the question is property the real answer or is just one method of the many you can choose.

    I can only comment from personal experience and my own observations, so i wont bother going into theory or what the government should do, hopefully we the people will put enough pressure on them to do the right things by the people.

    There will be lots of people that will have to sell their properties to try and survive as costs rise, i hear there are heaps in townsville right now, wonder how that happened?

    Only one person answered my question, "who knows someone is financially free from property personally", and that person said they made money from business then invested in property to get free".

    Is it just hype and bs,  are we maybe sheep that have watched to many aca specials, baaaa, baaaa, but the majority dont, they dont have the skills or the cashflow. You need cash to invest with and for that you need cashflow from anything and lots of it, i dont care what it is, but a job supplying it isnt the answer becuase that can dry up any time!!!! Eg all the rich miners that just lost their jobs.

    Personally I know of no one that counts on IPS as their soul source of income, its only one stream of multiple streams that have helped them get free.

    Education, theres heaps of people out there with phds and bugger all money, australia dosent pay for science and it dosent have the facilites to turn ideas or reserch into commercial reality, we wont win here, the indians and chinese can and will do it beter in the future, they have population and money and low costs.

    Our education system is stuck in the 1950s, most of it isnt relvant to how the world works today, most of its rubbish, how can i say this, well i have heaps of friends that are teachers, and my brother is a couple of years out of high school and he is clueless.

    Maybe the govment should focus alittle more on how to help businesses, these are the people that run the economy, thats my only opinion on that..

    Thats my 2 cents worth.

    Profile photo of LinarLinar
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    Hi pipeline builder

    My husband and I have achieved "financial independence" through property and property alone.  I use the inverted commas because we still have to work to pay for our lifestyle but our work is property development and we only need to do 1 – 2 builds per year to pay our way and increase our wealth.

    We started out at the beginning of 2004, just before I left work to have our first child.  My husband stopped work at the end of 2006 and hasn't gone back to paid employment since.  We could just do nothing and live off the interest from our equity (most of which has been realised because we have sold off a lot of stuff) but it wouldn't give us enough money to play with.  And besides, I love property.  I find the deals, sort finance etc and my husband liaises with our builder on the technical stuff that goes over my head.  The rest of the time my husband plays on the farm that we bought a couple of years ago.

    So some people on the forum may argue that technically I am not financially independent, but I can say that I basically do what I want, when I want it and I have absolutely no concerns about the financial crisis impacting significantly on us.  I consider myself financially free and my husband, who drives around the farm with a couple of little kiddies on a trailer on the back of whatever he is driving, certainly considers himself financially (and emotionally and spiritually) free.

    Cheers

    K

    Profile photo of devo76devo76
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    how about another question. Who is financially better off with property investing. Thats the thing. Sure some may lose through heavy gearing in a down turn but many will make it through. And for them and others starting out.The downside of not reaching financial independance may be that they still have assets they could sell or use to suppliment there wage. If that is failing then it looks ok to me. Many will not reach independance but many will creat real wealth from it.

    Profile photo of pipelinebuilderpipelinebuilder
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    Hi,
    I was waiting for the BRW rich list to come out in regards to property, It was an interesting read especially the backgrounds and how they achieved it, I was a little surprised by some of the names, but if we gave it an overview business would be number 1.

    Sometimes these things are snapshops  in time, I remember reading an article last year on eddie groves about how successful he was, now hes broke.
     
    Shales and linar, excellent post, well done and congratulations, these are the people in here to ask how they did, you have walked the mine field and come out the otherside, now you can help us all!!!!

    I was waiting and I knew there had to be a couple, and it sounds like you are professional eg doing developments, well done, how did you start Linar?

    shales, like the carbon trading idea, there are a couple of companies in australia doing it currently, to be honest i havent read alot about it but it sounds like an opportunity.

    Did anyone read about buffet today, even he can make mistakes?

    Profile photo of UbisoftUbisoft
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    In the last 5 or 6 decades, sharemarket returns and property returns over the long-run are very similar. And they have fast outpaced wage inflation. One thing's for sure. The average Australian's buying power will keep diminishing.

    At the end of the day it's all about the risk-reward spectrum and efficient frontier.

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