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  • Profile photo of dcn08dcn08
    Member
    @dcn08
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 15

    Hi Everyone,

    I was hoping if someone could help me with the following.
    Ive been reading alot of Rich Dad Poor Dad (ok almost the whole series) and I have read all of Steve's books, and ive come across a part that I am unsure whether it complies with Australian Real Estate ( I may have over looked it in one of Steve's books).

    My question is: Once you sell your investment property can you roll the capital gains tax over into your next investment and so on until you either die or pass your investments onto to charity?

    If I could get some clarity on this that would be great. I have been sitting on the side lines for so long now im starting to get itchy fingers and I am ready to jump in and have a go once I have had a few questions asked.

    Cheers

    Profile photo of snowkiwisnowkiwi
    Participant
    @snowkiwi
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 40

    While there are ways to minimise your tax obligations that you should discuss with your accountant, this is unfortunately not one of them in Australia. Well at least not in the way Robert Kiyosaki talks about in his books. That is specifically an american tax rule. Here you have capital gains tax.

    At least that's my understanding on it. If someone can correct me, I'd love to be proven wrong…

    Profile photo of IP FreelyIP Freely
    Member
    @ip-freely
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 353

    It is dependent upon the circumstances eg business premises which form part of the company's assets (and director's superannuation) – however specialist advice should be sought.

    The only other instance that I can think of (and totally legal) is reinvesting any capital gains made on the sale of your PPOR. Hence the biggest lurk is selling a fully capitalised PPOR having bought cheaply & added substantial value.

    Profile photo of lifeXlifeX
    Member
    @lifex
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 651

    The ATO base Capital Gains/Losses on an event.

    Ie: the financial year you sell an investment property triggers the Capital Gain event and must be paid that year.

      The only hope you have is that in the same financial year you make an equivalent capital loss by selling an investment that lost money.

       For instance if you lost a heap of money in the stockmarkets this year, it would be a good year to bring forward the sale of an investment property. This would result in a tax year where they may cancel each other out.

     I heard the americans pay no capital gains on the sale of their own PPORs but can still claim any house repayments as a deduction against their income… and they still crashed the system.  Go figure.

    Profile photo of lifeXlifeX
    Member
    @lifex
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 651

    The other way to lurk your way to capital gains joy is to rent your house out during periods when house prices are flat or falling(negative gear), and then live in your house while prices are booming.

    This could be covered with a valuation each time you move in or out.

    – The theory here is that the property only appreciates while it is your PPOR and therefore attracts no CGT.

    – Probably check on this one though with your accountant.

    …..oooooh, i hope I haven't started anything with this idea.

    Profile photo of lifeXlifeX
    Member
    @lifex
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 651

    or the other way is to never ever sell. and then you never pay CGT in your lifetime.

    Simply draw money out of the houses with more and more loans (search "living on equity")

    This is a very cool theory if done with caution.

    ….. ideally leave the properties with huge debt and huge capital gains to your least favourite relative. HA.

    Profile photo of IP FreelyIP Freely
    Member
    @ip-freely
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 353
    lifeX wrote:
    The ATO base Capital Gains/Losses on an event.

    Ie: the financial year you sell an investment property triggers the Capital Gain event and must be paid that year.

      The only hope you have is that in the same financial year you make an equivalent capital loss by selling an investment that lost money.

       For instance if you lost a heap of money in the stockmarkets this year, it would be a good year to bring forward the sale of an investment property. This would result in a tax year where they may cancel each other out.

    Capital losses (such as sale of shares at a loss) can be carried forward indefinitely and offset against other capital gains, so timing of the sale of assets realising capital gains should occur in the same year or any other time after you have incurred a loss.

     

    lifeX wrote:
    I heard the americans pay no capital gains on the sale of their own PPORs but can still claim any house repayments as a deduction against their income… and they still crashed the system.  Go figure.

    They may pay no cgt but they do pay land tax on all property PPOR or other (swings and roundabouts).

    Profile photo of lifeXlifeX
    Member
    @lifex
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 651

    I.P.

         Isn't it funny how the ATO demands money immediately when you make a profit, yet are happy to let you off for a few years when you lose.    

       And as a Victorian I also know the roughly shoved pineapple that is Land Tax. Those poor yanks…..

    Profile photo of dcn08dcn08
    Member
    @dcn08
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 15

    Thanks for the info,
     
    I find it extremely stupid how the governement can pick you for making a profit. There must be a loop hole somewhere. We are based slightly similar to the American market so there has to be something some where that we can get through with out paying Tax or so much (tax) on the sale. 

    Ok what about this then: So if I buy my Investment properties through a business i.e  bloggs construction trust , does that mean I pay no capital gains when the company sells the property ( or trust fund) .
    I know that sound s abit stupid but can someone please correct me. ( I may have forgottern reading this somewhere)

    It looks like there might be a little mixed consensus on this topic. I may have to do a little more research to broaden my financial education on this topic.

    Cheers. It is great to have like minded people just a click away.

    Profile photo of lifeXlifeX
    Member
    @lifex
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 651

    dcn,
       Capital Gains Tax is twice as bad for company owned assets.

      If you make a Cap. Gain with your own property investmentsyou get a 50% discount if you owned them for over a year.

       If they were owned in a company you would get no discount. Paying twice as much.

      The only way to not pay any cap. gains on a   property is if it has been your principal place of residence since purchase. But if this is the case, you would never had any of the benefits of negative gearing while you acquired it.

      C.G.T liabilities are not often taken into account by the average investor while building their portfolio, often only attended to when they sell.

          It is easy to keep using equity to borrow for multiple properties, just keep an eye on your cap. gains liability as each property increases. Because you could find that if you did sell the whole lot, you may have no money left + a huge cap gains debt to gov't. 

       

        If it is owned by a Discretionary Trust you will hopefully distribute the gains amongst the beneficiaries with the lowest tax bracket to MINIMISE the tax you are required to pay. New rules make this harder with a Hybrid Trust.

       Tax AVOIDANCE, where you illegally avoid taxes that you have to pay is viewed very unfavourably by the ATO (including jail time in some cases)… it also tends to annoy investors who are paying their share of tax.

       Personally I think we pay too much tax here in Australia, it is well above the western world average. The problem with Aussies as a collective is that we just take whatever crap the gov't dishes out.

      "what can we do, it's the government. They can do whatever they want" they'll say.

         –well in France or Greece for instance, if there is unjustified tax hikes there is riots in the streets and massive action.

    Profile photo of dcn08dcn08
    Member
    @dcn08
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 15

    Hey LifeX,

    Thank you for your imput very informative ( you do know your stuff). I have been doing my research this morning and have come across what you guys have been saying. Yes I do agree with you that we can not escape the tax laws, and I wish not to do that. I was trying to see who really knew what the rules were and if anyone really knew of a way to really minimise the tax but I guess once you pass ten to twelve IP's then this is really not a problem down the track (please correct me if im wrong – sharp learning curves are the best).

    Cheers

    Profile photo of lifeXlifeX
    Member
    @lifex
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 651

    dcn,
        tax minimisation is absolutely the goal. No-one should be paying more tax then they have to, that is crazy.

       You are clever to continually question to get to the bottom of the matter. 

      CGT is a massive cost to investors and is worth investigating.

       The best approach i have come across is to amass a huge debt, incur a huge tax liability and live like a king. Just make sure you die before the banks or the ATO ask for their money back.

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
    Participant
    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Just before you die borrow as much as you can. withdraw the cash and give it to family (leave no trails). Die on the target date and hopefully there will be not enough of the estate left to cover the CGT. You estate goes bankrupt but your dead so they can't come after you.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of dcn08dcn08
    Member
    @dcn08
    Join Date: 2009
    Post Count: 15

    OK now I have definitely have my homework cut out for me.

    Cheers guys for the tips, really appreciate it.
    I will get back to you both once I have my some more head way on this topic.

    Cheers

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