All Topics / Help Needed! / Asbestos Roof

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  • Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47

    Hi Folks
               I have an opportunity to buy a rental property returning 6.25% gross, they are 2 flats in one house. which i was told was council approved but not yet fully verified yet by me.
    My delema is the house has an asbestos roof which appears to be ok, but i was wondering what liability i might face if say a large hail storm hit the home and broke this Asbestos roof sheeting, as in the past terracota roof tiles have been broken in this manor, would my tenants be a risk of asbestos exposure, and would my insurance cover such an event i wonder.if the house was then classed not livable would i need to be responsible for putting the tenants in some other location at my expense.
    If this property had a standard metal or tile roof i would proceed with purchase, but now i am not so sure.
    Can anyone shine a light on this for me please.

    Profile photo of BuilderBobBuilderBob
    Participant
    @builderbob
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 131

    My dad just died from Asbestos so please be very careful.
    Asbestos in the home can kill!
    I've owned property with asbestos roofing and found it difficult to re-sell .
    I'm unsure what state you are in but I'm fairly sure they have set a time period for all asbestos roofing is to be removed in QLD
    I know commercial property has a far earlier date and housing is a fair few years after.
    As for the sheeting being damaged from hail I highly doubt that.

    If I had my time again I would avoid the abestos roof just from experience with my last two that had it.
    And the more time ticks on the close the deadline to replace will arrive then you will be up for some huge costs.

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    The cost for the removal of an AC roof is not that dramatic – call up a couple of roofing contractors either for a quote or an estimate that way you wil know how much you will be your exposure should you decide to replace the roof. It is a simple process, they spray the roof with a pva sealer then take the sheets down & dispose at an assigned tip. Vacuum the roof cavity and jack's your uncle.

    Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47
    BuilderBob wrote:
    My dad just died from Asbestos so please be very careful.
    Asbestos in the home can kill!
    I've owned property with asbestos roofing and found it difficult to re-sell .
    I'm unsure what state you are in but I'm fairly sure they have set a time period for all asbestos roofing is to be removed in QLD
    I know commercial property has a far earlier date and housing is a fair few years after.
    As for the sheeting being damaged from hail I highly doubt that.

    If I had my time again I would avoid the abestos roof just from experience with my last two that had it.
    And the more time ticks on the close the deadline to replace will arrive then you will be up for some huge costs.

    I am located in NSW Central Coast, I am unaware of any time frame by this state government  or ruling about replacing Asbestos roofing in this state but I will investigate it further now thanks to your reply.

    Thanks Builder Bob.

    Profile photo of BuilderBobBuilderBob
    Participant
    @builderbob
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 131

    I did know the deadline for QLD but a few years has passed now.
    If I remember correctly it was 3yrs for commercial buildings and some thing like 10yrs for housing.
    I'm fairly sure the commercial time has passed as I do remember many shops last year having their roof replaced.
    Maybe this only applies to certain councils , I cannot seem to find any details online about it.

    Profile photo of Scott No MatesScott No Mates
    Participant
    @scott-no-mates
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 3,856

    In NSW there is no requirement for residential owners to remove asbestos products. Conversely, all commercial building owners are required to have a register of contaminated products (eg lagging, vinyl tiles, switchboards, fascias, cladding, roofing etc). Even when the material is in poor condition (friable state) it is workcover which may intervene but only if it relates to a workplace and they have been requested to attend.

    If it don't leak, you don't need to touch it. If you get a storm which damages the roof, claim it on your building insurance.

    Profile photo of Asbestos Audits QueenslandAsbestos Audits Queensland
    Participant
    @aaq
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 47

    Hello Trustieone;

    I do this for a living so there are a couple of factors in assessing the roof -is it painted or unpainted? do the drain pipes go underground or empty on the surface? What are the gutters and drain pipes made of? Have you had a look into the gutters and roof surface? Is it near a major pollutant area (freeways, industrial area or CBD) as this impacts on the rate of cement deterioration which releases the asbestos from the matrix of the material.
    If its unpainted and in a polluted area your best choice is to get rid of it. As Scott no mates said get a couple of roof removalists (3+ as they will give you excessive quotes if they think they can!) who advertise they do this kind of work. Check they are licenced to remove it! In Qld there are 2 kinds of licence A & B Class either will allow you to do rooves at the moment but this is under discussion.
    THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS ENSURE THEY VACUUM OUT THE ROOF SPACE. The last thing you want is a cheap job leaving asbestos cement fragments scattered through the roof space for other tradies to find!
    There is as far as I'm aware no requirement in any state to remove asbestos roofs on residential properties! (The roofing companies would be making billions if there was!)
    As for insurance I've been involved in doing reports for houses on this matter after hailstorms and it all comes down to your insurer some are happy to remove and replace it with little or no argument others will fight tooth and nail not to! Check you policy fine print!
    If its got an asbestos roof it will will probably have asbestos elsewhere.
    Happy to provide you with more info.
    Brian Sketcher
    Asbestos Audits Queensland

    Asbestos Audits Queensland | Asbestos Audits Queensland
    https://asbestosaudits.com.au/
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Any asbestos questions ask me.

    Profile photo of BuilderBobBuilderBob
    Participant
    @builderbob
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 131

    AAQ  whats the deal in QLD with dead line of replacing the roof of commercial and housing ?
    Or does it just apply to certain areas?

    The following products manufactured before 1980 could contain asbestos and all precautions should be taken.

    In simple terms don't mess around with asbestos. It's not worth the risk life is to short!

    • Flat or corrugated sheeting (fibro cement or “AC” sheeting).
    • Water pipes.
    • Flue pipes.
    • Roof shingles.
    • Flexible building boards.
    • Plaster patching compounds.
    • Textured paint.
    • Vinyl floor tiles.
    • The backings of linoleum floor coverings.
    • Insulation on hot water pipes.
    • Insulation in old domestic heaters.
    • Insulation in stoves.
    • Ceiling insulation products.
    Profile photo of Asbestos Audits QueenslandAsbestos Audits Queensland
    Participant
    @aaq
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 47

    Hi Builder Bob
    As far as I'm aware unless its a local council thing there is NO requirement to replace asbestos roof cladding of any kind.

    And your right about it being a killer- estimates are that asbestos will kill more people in Australia than AIDS between now and 2020!!!!
    CSIRO have identified 3500+ materials used in Australia that contain asbestos. ANY fibro or AC pre 1984 will have asbestos. Fibro pipe until 1989 and it was still imported for brakes and gaskets etc till 2003- yes 2003.
    The State government in QLD got caught in a big problem when they tried to install aircon in school s- they didn't realise so many had asbestos roofs thats why they carried out the roof removal program because there was not point in putting in insulation to keep the schools cool if it was going to be contaminated….

    For commercial building ALL COMMERCIAL BUILDINGS built pre 1990 Must have an asbestos report, register & Management plan. 
    If residential properties are to be renovated and businesses employed to carry out this work then it becomes a Workplace and the same laws apply.
    The biggest danger to renos are by far the asbestos backed vinyl and asbestos insulation board (rated 3rd most dangerous in England but here we don't recognise it!!!!) 
    If you need any further info contact me.

    Asbestos Audits Queensland | Asbestos Audits Queensland
    https://asbestosaudits.com.au/
    Email Me | Phone Me

    Any asbestos questions ask me.

    Profile photo of BuilderBobBuilderBob
    Participant
    @builderbob
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 131

    Thanks Brian, people need to be aware of asbestos.
    My dad was only 53 and suddenly died from it before he even had a chance to retire from working.
    It can just sit dormant in your body for many years then just when you are ready to sit back and enjoy life it's all over!

    Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47

    Thanks Bob, Scott, AAq

    Your replies are very much appreciated.

    It now appears from further research that this property is zoned for its current use (dual occupancy) however the building has not been council approved to use it in this manner ie 2 flats, it also seems that it has been this way for 10-20 -30 years by consecutive owners just letting it out this way, the building is possibly 40 to 50 years old.
    On inspection by a close friend (a builder) who lives in the area, the house has no fire rated walls, no  deviding brick wall under the house etc.
    My concern now is what to offer the agent seeing that there is an unknown cost (due to my inexperience in knowing whats fully required) to make the property compliant.

    The person who owns this property is also the Real Estate agent who is selling it,& initialy told me it is council approved for this activity, but my research has told me the land is but the dwelling isnt. (that info came from the council during my research)
    I was really interested in this place at 6.25% gross return,  but this wont be the case if making it council compliant is a costly exercise.
    How do i determine costs without spending too much at this stage.

    Any further comments please.

    Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47

    Re my last post above
    Council now tells me (a different Town Planner)  all is ok with this property and everything on the site is approved as it stands today.
    Its amazing you know, you ring these places (councils) for clarification and many times you get conflicting answers, this can be a difficult process at any time without getting the wrong info from people who are supposed to be in these postions to assist with enquiries, all the more reason to do your homework i guess.

    If i proceed with this purchase would i get much/any depreciation on the property because of its age at least 40 years old
    some other details are, not sure what info is relevant.

    1. My salary 52k
    2. Purchase price 240k
    3. Borrowing 200k
    4. Rent  return annually   15k
    5. Standard outgoings,insur,agent fee, repairs etc.

    Also can someone recommend a software program so i can log all financial information re an IP for record purposes.

    Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47

    Not far from settling on this property, just waiting for the Real Estate to get back to me re my final offer, any comments on the above questions are still welcome.
    This is a great site for knowledge, I just love it.
    Thanks everyone

    Profile photo of BuilderBobBuilderBob
    Participant
    @builderbob
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 131

    Sorry for the slow response I've been busy working away and don't often get around to dropping in here. I tend to find myself answering questions / helping out over at http://www.reao.com.au  .

    Yes I understand your frustration when it comes ot wrong info , often supplied by such groups like like councils..grrr
    Not trying to put a downer on your project but I'd really want some thing in writting when it comes to dealing with council.
    They are well known for denying what has been said and you later find they are stating if it's not in writting you have no proof.

    Profile photo of newbi2newbi2
    Member
    @newbi2
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 227

    HI Trustie,

    How did it all work out? Did you end up purchasing this property?

    Mick

    Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47

    Hello Mick & others
                      Finally my daughter has bought the property,all appears to be good and no surprises to come hopefully, it is showing a gross rental return of 7.19% and is in the Lake Macquarie shire not too far from the lake and shops etc.
    As this is my daughters first IP she is a little nervous but also relieved to have finally found something after months of looking and looking, but i suppose that what needs to be done if you want to find something that may benifit you down the track.
    Thanks to all the posters your knowledge is very much welcomed and appreciated.

    Trustie

    Profile photo of rabbitohsrabbitohs
    Member
    @rabbitohs
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 15

    3 of the bathrooms in my investment portfilo have asbestos in them… i Enquired to have them removed and was told its not worthwhile..
    So i took the builders opinion but i still wonder

    Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47

    Hi Rabbits

                      The asbestos sheeting in bathrooms or anywhere else on a property is usually fine, just never grind it or drill holes in it, just avoid any thing that makes dust with asbestos/fibro sheeting .
    I too have removed it over the years and if you keep it intact all will normally be ok.
    If you do need to work with it just wear the appropriate mask and disposable overalls when doing the required task.

    trustie

    Profile photo of mackersmackers
    Member
    @mackers
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 7

     Hi trustieone

    Being a person who is a, A CLASS prescribed license holder and an a class license holder in his own right I would advise that you go to a hygienist company such as Queensland audits, Noel Arnold and associates, Queensland laboratories or Parsons and Brinkerhoff and ask them to do a report upon the stability and state of your roof as it is.

    As we all know there are many varied and different reports into when a roof becomes friable or not. The common train of thought is that after ten years or so in the sun a roof can become brittle and can become friable if hail damage occurs.

    I point you to the nohsc code of practice part 12.1.2.2 for roof removal which is the standard code of practice which most companies follow however there are a few companies who do not. But be aware that in 12.1.1 of the same code it talks of hail damage and how much of a risk it presents. The words according to the code of practice are hail, storm and fire damaged asbestos cement- products can pose a high risk of asbestos exposure and should be assessed to determine if they are friable.   The code can be found here at this website http://www.ascc.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/1A198A7C-D0A7-40AD-964E-31673C695E92/0/AsbestosCode.pdf

    As far as the insurance companies covering this if there is a hail storm the sad fact currently after having worked with many insurance companies is probably not due to many of the insurance loss adjusters not knowing infact what they are dealing with. Many of the loss adjustors who turn up to fires which contain asbestos don’t even wear mask or overalls.

    My advice to you is to seek a company who will do the work according to the code of practice who is insured to do asbestos removal work as many companies in this industry do not hold asbestos removal insurance they only hold public liability insurance which if you check with the insurance companies public liability NO LONGER COVERS ASBESTOS REMOVAL unless it is stated as demolition component and has asbestos nominated upon their policy

     

    The check list for you should be.

    Are they licensed? To do this removal

    Are they insured? To cover you in the event they contaminate your home. Recently there was a company who removed a roof and broke the asbestos into the ceiling space leaving it behind and contaminating the home of the people involved.

    Do they have references which you can contact about their workmanship? When I normally give a price and quote I offer something which no other company does and that is a full checkable work history including previous air test certificates I have obtained if the client has required them and also offer the clients the chance to check previous clients I have had and let them discuss amongst themselves as to my ability to do the job safely and in a timely fashion,

    You will more than likely get quotes ranging from 60 dollars a square meter to 75 dollars a square meter. The difference in price is one of choice and sadly people normally are money driven but the price difference means the difference between doing a job properly and doing it in a hap hazard fashion

    I would make just one more comment here which is

    You would not trust your family to go to an unlicensed doctor so why trust an un licensed asbestos removalist to do your work which could if handled wrong potentially contaminate your family and also your tenants

     

    Jayson

    Asbestos removal tech

    Profile photo of trustieonetrustieone
    Member
    @trustieone
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 47
    mackers wrote:
     Hi trustieone

    Being a person who is a, A CLASS prescribed license holder and an a class license holder in his own right I would advise that you go to a hygienist company such as Queensland audits, Noel Arnold and associates, Queensland laboratories or Parsons and Brinkerhoff and ask them to do a report upon the stability and state of your roof as it is.

    As we all know there are many varied and different reports into when a roof becomes friable or not. The common train of thought is that after ten years or so in the sun a roof can become brittle and can become friable if hail damage occurs.

    I point you to the nohsc code of practice part 12.1.2.2 for roof removal which is the standard code of practice which most companies follow however there are a few companies who do not. But be aware that in 12.1.1 of the same code it talks of hail damage and how much of a risk it presents. The words according to the code of practice are hail, storm and fire damaged asbestos cement- products can pose a high risk of asbestos exposure and should be assessed to determine if they are friable.   The code can be found here at this website http://www.ascc.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/1A198A7C-D0A7-40AD-964E-31673C695E92/0/AsbestosCode.pdf

    As far as the insurance companies covering this if there is a hail storm the sad fact currently after having worked with many insurance companies is probably not due to many of the insurance loss adjusters not knowing infact what they are dealing with. Many of the loss adjustors who turn up to fires which contain asbestos don’t even wear mask or overalls.

    My advice to you is to seek a company who will do the work according to the code of practice who is insured to do asbestos removal work as many companies in this industry do not hold asbestos removal insurance they only hold public liability insurance which if you check with the insurance companies public liability NO LONGER COVERS ASBESTOS REMOVAL unless it is stated as demolition component and has asbestos nominated upon their policy

     

    The check list for you should be.

    Are they licensed? To do this removal

    Are they insured? To cover you in the event they contaminate your home. Recently there was a company who removed a roof and broke the asbestos into the ceiling space leaving it behind and contaminating the home of the people involved.

    Do they have references which you can contact about their workmanship? When I normally give a price and quote I offer something which no other company does and that is a full checkable work history including previous air test certificates I have obtained if the client has required them and also offer the clients the chance to check previous clients I have had and let them discuss amongst themselves as to my ability to do the job safely and in a timely fashion,

    You will more than likely get quotes ranging from 60 dollars a square meter to 75 dollars a square meter. The difference in price is one of choice and sadly people normally are money driven but the price difference means the difference between doing a job properly and doing it in a hap hazard fashion

    I would make just one more comment here which is

    You would not trust your family to go to an unlicensed doctor so why trust an un licensed asbestos removalist to do your work which could if handled wrong potentially contaminate your family and also your tenants

     

    Jayson

    Asbestos removal tech

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