All Topics / General Property / How to find a reliable tradie

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  • Profile photo of wellonthewaywellontheway
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    @wellontheway
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 20

    Hi,

    I'm wondering if anyone has tried and tested a way to find a reliable tradesman?

    Challenges
    1) How do I know that I'm not taken for a ride;price-wise (apart from getting the various quotations)?
    2) Each time I invest in a new area, I need to go through the entire process of finding the 'right' people to be in my team (PM, handyman, plumber, etc) – this is quite a tedious process.
    3) How do I verify the quality of the tradesperson? Do I ask for references (past jobs)?
    4) How do I know if they'll complete the work on time (or show up on time!)?

    I'm finding the process of finding a "good" tradesperson to be a "trial and error" process.   Am I missing some "tricks" here or am I not the only one?

    Regards,
    Albert

    Profile photo of crashycrashy
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    @crashy
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 736

    firstly, quotes are a SCAM

    as a former tradie myself, I can tell you dollar signs flash in my eyes when I hear the phrase “can I get a quote?”. When we do a quote, we estimate how long it will take and how much materials are required, add some if we see obvious problems, then add 20% before submitting the price. Think about this……..if your boss said “do this job, but Im going to pay you before you do it.” If you thought it might take between 2 days and 4 days, would you accept 2 days or demand 4 days just in case? how would you feel if you were paid for 2 days and had to work 4? now consider the time and travel costs wasted going to where the job was. sometimes it can be 3 hours unpaid for a tradie doing a quote including travel time. thats about $200 which they need to recover from someone……..guess who?

    also, we know its hard to get tradies out to quote. we know that you are unlikely to bother getting multiple quotes, or simply cant get 3 guys to turn up. we know the quote we give you will have about a 66% chance of being accepted, and it will be inflated because of these factors.

    Instead, call a few tradesmen and ask:

    – do you cover this area?
    – are you available?
    – give a good description of the work. is this the kind of work you take on?
    – what are your charges?
    – roughly how long do you think it will take?
    – when can you start?

    call him the night before to confirm. if he trys to reschedule, threaten to call someone else. dont expect him to give you a precise time as its unlikely to be accurate. a “9.30 – 10.30” timeslot is more likely to see him turn up. we often get jobs take longer and with rigid times someone has to get cancelled so we can get back on track.
    you will find the final bill will be much lower than any quote.

    be nice. show him where the toilet is and offer him a cold drink at least once an hour. make sure wherever he is working is clear of clutter & furniture. offer to clean up any mess.

    when the job is complete, assuming the tradie turned up on time and completed the job to your satisfaction, pay IMMEDIATELY, preferably in cash. thank him for doing a good job and tell him you will use him in the future. ask for a card and tell him you have friends looking for a good tradie. leave a good impression in his mind and he will not only remember you next time, you will get preferential treatment.

    Profile photo of wellonthewaywellontheway
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    @wellontheway
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 20

    Crashy,

    You hit a good point there.  When the job is "lump sum" or "turn key", there is a tendency to include contingencies etc.  Having said that, even with your regular tradies, do you still get quotes for new jobs? 

    Do you believe in using tradies recommended by friends? Do you personnaly recommend tradies?  I've heard that some people are afraid to recommend for fear that their "realiable tradie" will be loaded with requests.

    Regards,
    Albert 

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    @l.a-aussie
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 1,488

    "reliable" and "tradesman" should never be used in the same sentence, let alone next to each other.

    Crashy, it sounds as though you may have been one of those tradies I like to fire from a job.

    Why should we offer tradesmen a drink every hour? Will he do a bad job out of spite if we don't? If I get offered a drink by the client (I used to do some tradie stuff too) it doesn't mean "hey; I think I'll do a decent job now, because before the client was nice to me I wasn't going to try very hard".

    Isn't the fact that he is getting paid to do a job, and at an inflated price according to your description, enough?

    Why should we offer to clean up the mess? They made it and are being paid. I used to do a bit of painting with my Dad – a professional painter; he always cleaned up afterward. He was never asked to, and was always flat out because he did a fantastic job every time. Will the tradie deduct a bit off the price because I helped him clean up? Yeah right.

    Why pay in cash – he'll only not declare it to the ATO and go on a camping holiday to Echuca, or buy a jetski with it, and we've funded it through a price gouge.

    I'll pay cash (knowing it won't be declared to the ATO) if I get at least a 10% discount off the price.

    How about the tradie tries his best to not frig around the client, does a good job and on time as he should, and maybe we will remember him and refer him to our friends? How about the tradie tries to leave a good impression in our mind?

    Being a good tradie is not something they might be – it is their bloody responsibility, and we should'nt have to suck up their a**e to get a decent job done for a decent price.

    ARE YOU KIDDING ME??

    Albert;
    you ask what the hourly rate is, when he can start and how long it should take. Not a quote as "crashy the standover tradesman" says.
    You tell the tradesman that if the job goes over the (his) estimated timeframe to complete it he won't get paid.
    This will sort out who wants the work and who doesn't, and it will make the tradie rethink his time frame carefully if he does take on the work.

    Profile photo of crashycrashy
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    @crashy
    Join Date: 2003
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    L.A…..

    your post is not only defamitory, but just plain ignorant.

    you have never met me and have no idea about my workmanship. Your claims that all tradesmen are scum proves what kind of person you are. I expect a formal apology for your baseless allegations. Ive spent quite a bit of time working on Frank Lowys house (among other blue chip clients) and have many awards proving my workmanship is top notch.

    you need a wakeup call pal. You seem to think tradies need you more than you need them. Thats not the case. You think you can treat them like a doormat, well what goes around comes around.

    Would you advertise for a cleaner at the rate of $65/hr? well thats effectively what you are doing when you get them to clean up their mess. I would rather clean up the mess myself and save $30 or so. Why pay a specialist do do work someone on min wage can do?

    “I’ll pay cash (knowing it won’t be declared to the ATO) if I get at least a 10% discount off the price.”

    you just admitted to tax fraud. be careful how you word your apology.

    keeping the tradesman comfortable and refreshed will get the job done quicker. If the tradesman is frazzled he is more likely to bugger off for a long lunch or leave altogether. If the overall job has been a positive experience he will be more likely to come back next time you need him.

    There are many words I could use to describe a person who treats people as you do. For the record, the only people I stung with inflated quotes were the arrogant jerks who looked down their nose at me. I knew they would be trouble and charged them accordingly. If I find people are friendly and respectable (and arent wasting tradies time getting 10 quotes) then they are the people I want to work for and Im not likely to overcharge. I would much rather be happy at work than be miserable and make a few extra bucks.

    you sound like one of these clowns who gets 5 quotes for a 5 min job. or you find some small mistake and refuse to pay the bill. or you are happy with the job and dont pay the bill for 3 months.

    there are just as many scumbag customers as there are scumbag tradesmen.

    Profile photo of mathewc73mathewc73
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    @mathewc73
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 241

    Hi Albert,
    I hope this will also help…

    Myths:
    1. A tradie who is busy is not always the best
    2. A tradie who has little on does not mean he does a bad job
    3. A referral does not mean the tradie is good.

    Facts:
    1. A tradie is a good as his last several jobs
    2. Like everything multiple jobs, creating a good working relationship will allow you to keep and work with good tradies in the future.
    3. A tradie is a human being and does need a drink and a toilet :)

    So, to answer your questions:
    1. Get 3 quotes.  First do some research so you understand what they will be doing for you (ie finishings, quality of material, etc)
    2. To find good tradies.  Look where work has been done. eg does that shop look good? ask who did it… Ask real estate agents.  Ask the suppliers.  They usually have contacts and sofar I have found they do a good job (ie the carpenter who installed the kit kitchen can quote you on doing the wardrobes, etc).

    3. Yes if its a big job or visible job, etc.  Also take their builders license and check it out to be sure its valid.  Take their ABN and do the same. You have rights if the job is bad.

    4. Have a plan B.  Its ok if they call to re-schedule once only.  After that another client can take a hit.  If they dont turn up without and calling I consider that rude and so I would go to plan B which would be another tradie I liked.

    Sadly it takes time,

    Profile photo of wellonthewaywellontheway
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    @wellontheway
    Join Date: 2006
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    Matt,

    thanks for the input.  Touching on myth no.3 – say you're looking for an electrician to re-wire one of your investment properties, and you have not used any electrician before.  If a friend recommends an electrician whom he/she has used previously, would you be comfortable with using him/her?  If so, what checks would you peform?

    Albert

    Profile photo of r1trackdayr1trackday
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    @r1trackday
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 25

    This is great.

    I'm a carpenter my self and i totally agree with crashy!
    If we get a bad/arogant customer, the job losses a part of its sole and you just dont care about it any more.

    It's a sad truth.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    @l.a-aussie
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    Post Count: 1,488

    Hey crashy,

    your workmanship wasn't bought into question – just your ethics. You yourself said "as a former tradie myself, I can tell you dollar signs flash in my eyes when I hear the phrase "can I get a quote?".
    I've no doubt you do good work; I would hope you do if you are still in the trade. Are you in Melb; I may need some work done in the near future. I'll want an hourly rate of course.
    I never said ALL tradesman were scum – just an unfortunately disproportionate number of them. And you know this is true.
    I agree; there are a lot of bad customers as well. But the issue that wellontheway raised was reliable tradesmen.
    We could go on for days about bad clients as well, but that's another thread. You can start it if you want and I will back you up!
    I have worked for some real pr***k clients too, but guess what – they were PAYING ME so I still did a great job and thanked them for the business. Don't tell me you think that a bad client gives you the right to do a less than professional job? You are a professional, right?
    That goes for you too race1trackday; "If we get a bad/arogant customer, the job losses a part of its sole and you just dont care about it any more."
    I can't believe I am hearing this. THE CUSTOMER IS PAYING YOU!!! You are obliged to do your best.
    You guys need an attitude check.
    You are wrong; the tradie needs the client – the client PAYS YOU. Without the client you don't eat. I have been in business for about 30 years and I am still yet to find an industry where the client was not the boss.
    I am not ignorant; as I said; I have been a tradie myself – a reliable and dedicated to a good job one at that, and I have dealt with many tradesman. The sad truth is that more than half were unreliable, indifferent, charged daylight robbery and took too long to complete a job. Some never turned up to look at the job, Some came 2 days late.
    Just stating facts – not starting a smear campaign. Someone already did that 100 years ago. Let's face it; tradies reputations are in the can. Sorry if it offends you.

    One guy I hired to do some tiling bought in his nephew to help him after the job started, which was a quote job (I've learned since then), and then tried to charge me $200 extra each day for the nephew. A good bloke.
    Another guy built me a deck – a $5.5k job, and left off 1 length of Merbau to finish the job at the base of the deck. I paid him anyway (cash) and he said he'd be back in 2 days to put the last piece on. I'm still waiting 4 years later – I ended up doing it myself. I even helped him break up the concrete slab which was in the way to dig the stumps and made him about 20 coffees over the week he worked for me. A real good bloke. But guess what – I have a $10k deck job that needs doing now and guess who isn't getting the job? He was a smart guy; stiffing me for 10 mins of his time.

    I never said tradies should be treated like a doormat – I said that the client should have every right to expect the tradesman to do the job they were paid for, on time and to a good standard; without coercion.
    It seems to me that by your statement you think that if they are not being treated with kid gloves then they are being treated like a door mat. Check your attitude.

    For the record, I always look after good tradesman as I know what it is like to be on the tools in the hot sun working for some fool – I just don't pander to them and I shouldn't have to, but I definitely don't look after bad ones or ones that try to shaft me. I have been let down too often to do that now. I wish I couldn't say that.

    I didn't admit to tax fraud – I stated that tradies take "cashies" and quite often never declare the money. This means they quite often are not paying tax on the money I pay them, and I don't care that they don't declare it – good luck to them. But I want a discount off my end as I know that a discount for me will still be more for them than if they were to declare it. We all win.

    I have never not paid a tradesman, but I have had the unfortunate experience of having to hold back payment until they came back to finish off the last 20 mins worth of work that they didn't want to come back and finish, or the crap job that they hoped I wouldn't notice and be happy with. I owe no man and have never ripped off a client or a tradie. My conscience is clear.

    The house I currently own was owned by a builder. When I inspected the house for the first time he had in his garage enough timber to build an entire new house. All overquoted material from various jobs. A good bloke. Most tradies would think this is funny; a win for the tradie. Am I wrong?

    Don't try to tell me you can tell when you do a quote how the customer will turn out; that's like a customer trying to tell how a tradie will turn out when he comes to do the quote. Just admit it; if there is a chance to gouge a bit more when a quote is asked for you say you are gunna take it.

    "If the overall job has been a positive experience he will be more likely to come back next time you need him." Nice statement. So, if the tradie has a hard day at the office and the client didn't mop his brow you're saying he won't come back to earn some more lovely money when the opportunity arises because his experience wasn't enjoyable? Now I'm laughing.

    If the experience wasn't positive for me (the client), there is no next time for the tradie and I'll tell all my friends how bad the tradie was.

    I'll just find another one. There are plenty around who will do the right thing, and 'll tell ALL my friends about the good job he did. And I'll ring him again when I need more work done.

    Profile photo of crashycrashy
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    @crashy
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    a poor attempt at some back-peddling, some more hypocracy and still no apology.

    why you have a chip on your shoulder and act like the sharp end of a needle is irrelevant. The thread was “how to find a reliable tradie” not “how to get on every tradies blacklist and make an ass of yourself”

    I did a job for a guy once who called me from 2 hours south of me. I told him there must be someone closer & he tried to tell me I was the only option. I explained that I would need to charge a heap of travel time & he accepted. When I got there I queried him some more & his wife eventually explained that he had pissed off every other sparky in the city and had finally learned his lesson when he went 2 weeks without power in his restaurant. Lucky for him I was obliging. moral of the story – close too many doors behind you and eventually you are trapped…….

    Its funny you question my ethics after admitting you have no problem dodging GST. Denial now only reduces your credibility further.

    Your opinion of tradies is just that. I see no evidence that your view is universal.

    I laughed so hard when you asked me to do work for you. My sides still hurt.

    Profile photo of crashycrashy
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    @crashy
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    mathewc73 wrote:
    Get 3 quotes.  First do some research so you understand what they will be doing for you (ie finishings, quality of material, etc

    this is a good point. If you dont know EXACTLY what you want done, then quotes will allow you to get a few different ideas / suggestions.

    Another important point is that the cheapest quote is often that way for a reason. A good strategy is to take the middle one.

    Quotes are also a good idea if you dont know if a project is financially viable.

    I had some customers who tried to intimidate me by speaking the lingo. This tells me that they are either a know-it-all, or have had so many quotes they have memorised what everyone said. Either way, I deliberately over-quote in the hope that some other poor sod gets the job. If I do get it, the extra makes it worth the headaches.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    @l.a-aussie
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    "I had some customers who tried to intimidate me by speaking the lingo. This tells me that they are either a know-it-all, or have had so many quotes they have memorised what everyone said. Either way, I deliberately over-quote in the hope that some other poor sod gets the job. If I do get it, the extra makes it worth the headaches."

    Crashy; do you need any more proof that I'm right for god's sake? You keep saying I've got a chip on my shoulder – how could I not? That's 3 tradies in 3 posts all admitting to gouging. You, racetrackman and Matt. Can we have even one tradie post here that has never tried to gouge a client, or not turn up or whatever??

    "Its funny you question my ethics after admitting you have no problem dodging GST. Denial now only reduces your credibility further."

    You have misinterpreted what I said – I was inferring that the tradie was not going to declare his payment to the ATO and you know that is what happens to many "cashies". Tell me I'm wrong.

    I'm not the one dodging anything other than paying too much. I'm just paying the bill. What the tradie does with his payment is up to him. He's the one responsible for the b.a.s. statement and his tax.

    You are right though; the thread was "how to find a reliable tradie". I hijacked it because you were talking s**t; crying about all the clients who treat you bad and cause you to get all vengeful and stiff them.

    You did tell us how to treat them so they might stay reliable until the end of the job. But this should not be a factor and that's my whinge. You think it is a factor in how the work is done. You're the one with the chip, you think the client needs you and you don't need the client, it's you against the client and you have to gouge him for all that you can get away with. Tell me you've never done it!

    What we want to know is how you can find one BEFORE he starts work. This has been my argument all along; it is unfortunately very hard to do. WHY??

    Why should it be so hard to find reliable help?

    At least we can thank you (and me) for giving everyone a heads up about a few of the rorts that are tried on. Thanks mate.

    Does this mean that if I offer you a job at a good hourly rate and treat you well you won't take it? Come on, now you're being a bit thin skinned. I'll treat you well; I promise. I even buy beers for tradies – the good ones.

    I'll pay cash as I said. You can do with it what you want. I'm not paying the gst or your company/personal tax – you are.

    Can we get back to the thread now? I've had my dig; you've had yours; move on. I think the forumites are having fun listening to us; I know I am.

    My middle name is "senseless argument".

    I'm not apologising though. I'm not sorry for one thing I said. I tell it like I see it and you don't like it. Too bad.

    BACK TO THE THREAD;

    wellontheway; the best way to find a reliable tradesman is by word of mouth. The best tradesmen – the ones who look after the clients, get the most work I've found in my experience.

    If you don't know anyone who can refer a tradie, then ring one of the local guys up and ask them to supply the names and numbers of 2 or 3 satisfied clients they have worked for recently.

    A builder I used to build my first house did this without me even asking and, of course, his record was impeccable and he and his boys did a great job. And crashy; I paid top dollar and bought about 6 slabs of VB for the boys, and was happy to do it.

    your serve. I've got nothing better to do. I can play this game until the Mods call full time.

    Profile photo of wriggleswriggles
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    @wriggles
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    Post Count: 24

    Im a tradie myself (dirty ol plumber). 
    I think we have all had bad experiences from either side. 
    From my experience in hiring tradies…i tend to get the old fashioned 3 quotes….but prob then i decide more on their personality.  Sounds stupid and prob not much help but its worked for me so far.
    A few might ask first whether you want to pay cash or you want a receipt?  Id definately get a receipt of an eletrician and a plumber (depending on how big the job is for a plumber) as they both have to be liscenced tradesman.  If anything goes wrong you have a receipt of the work that has been carried out.

    If a client is rude to me (which a few have been) I still always finish the job 100% t the best of my ability. Its all about the finished product and a sense of pride.  Even if its a kitchen sink i put in, prob means jack to everyone else but its my kitch sink i installed.  The last thing i want as a plumber is some other plumber (maybe a friend of a friend of the client) to walk straight up to it one day at a BBQ or something, take one look, and say "gee, who put that kitch sink in? pretty dodgy"
    My reputation is everything.
    Like i said before we have all have had bad experiences, and some people on both sides let it down for one another.
    But i agree with Mr LA, as a tradie we have an obligatin to do a spot on job everytime cause thats we r paid to do.

    Profile photo of LYRAELYRAE
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    I have just completed a nine month "nightmare" of renovating my backyard and it has involved dealing with various tradesmen.

    Unfortunately, I dealt with more bad ones then good.

    If you are going to use a tradie for a job, do your homework on them.

    Check to see if their business name is registered, check out that their ABN is legit, check to see if they are registered for GST (otherwise they can not charge GST for their job), have 2 contact phone numbers from them and know their business address or their residential address (vital if you need to get a bailiff to issue a summons).

    And never give them a cash cheque – regardless of their pleas.

    I also ring, say the day before the job, and double confirm the time for them to turn up. And if they don't turn up at the appointed time, give them an hours grace and contact them on their whereabouts. This is so you don't spend/waste all day, waiting for someone to turn up.

    Sometimes, when you spend big money on renos (IP or PPOR), you need to cover your butt and learn from prior mistakes.

    Lyrae

    Profile photo of mathewc73mathewc73
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    @mathewc73
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    Hello,
    I just need to set the record straight:

    Crashy; do you need any more proof that I'm right for god's sake? You keep saying I've got a chip on my shoulder – how could I not? That's 3 tradies in 3 posts all admitting to gouging. You, racetrackman and Matt. Can we have even one tradie post here that has never tried to gouge a client, or not turn up or whatever??

    I believe Matt is me?

    Sorry Im not a tradie, Im a CUSTOMER! and with experience of learning the best way to find a good tradie.  My approach follows tried and tested principles. Nothing new which is why it works.

    Also, if its a big job, I have found a good tradie has a good relationship with past client and you will be able to contact a past client to look at the quality of work.

    Albert I hope you have found your answer on this thread and as you can see from the comments, every tradie will look and form a different opinion about you and the job. So just be sure you have a method of finding a good tradie that, as much as possible, leaves their opionins about you at the front door.

    Regards,

    Profile photo of wellonthewaywellontheway
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    Matt,

    The posts above have reaffirmed my perception that there's a mixed bag tradies out there; ones who are out there to earn a decent living (like wriggles), and 'the rest'.

    Also, it's quite clear that once you find a good one, you'll want to build a rapport .  I currently have a job of painting/carpeting/bathroom upgrade for 3 of my units and a house – based on the "referral" system, I think I'll be contacting the various Real Estate professionals that I know/trust to get some referrals.

    Does any of you know if there's a post on the forum that's purely to recommend tradies?  That'll be an idea!

    Lyrae,
    Did you get referrals from friends on good tradies to use before you started your renovation?

    Albert

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    "I had some customers who tried to intimidate me by speaking the lingo. This tells me that they are either a know-it-all, or have had so many quotes they have memorised what everyone said. Either way, I deliberately over-quote in the hope that some other poor sod gets the job. If I do get it, the extra makes it worth the headaches."

    Sorry Matt,
    this section of the post – actually; most of it sounded as though you were a tradie.
    What does this section refer to?

    Profile photo of leahwatleahwat
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    @leahwat
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    be nice, show him where the toilet is and offer him a cold drink at least once an hour, offer to clean up any mess.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I'm sorry but I cant help myself responding to this.

    MY 5 year old can get himself a drink of water!!!!

    It is my strong opinion that a good tradesman cleans up after the job is done and he has either been paid or the clock is off.

    Wellontheway,

    I agree with Lyrae , some good advice.
    Word of mouth is the best way to find a tradie and I do not agree with paying by the hour as it seems to slow things down alot!
    On the ocassions when we have had a bad tradie , and where we are paying by the hour, the phone seems to be constantly on  the ear.
     
    Not bagging tradies as majority of mine over the years have been wonderful, including my Hubby , but I refuse to check on a grown man every hour to see if he needs anything. PLEASE!!!!! (again, including hubby)

    Profile photo of mathewc73mathewc73
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    Marc,
    I did not write that.  My userid is mathewc73.  That was not posted by me.

    Regards,

    Profile photo of blogsblogs
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    @blogs
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    This post just goes to prove what I have been saying to everyone about tradies-they are the biggest bunch of rip off merrchants next to used car salesman out there. They charge like wounded bulls and still expect to be treated like princesses-fer crying out loud most are on $100k a year plus and they have a little cry if they arnt waited on like royalty with drinks etc? WTF ever heard of an esky ya bludger? I cant wait for the tide to turn back around to where there is an excess of tradies to choose from and they can come back to reality.

    I am paying you to do a job, full stop. And you are recieving my money in return for the job completed to a professional standard. I dont understand the part where I am paying you to allow me to be 'nice' to you or to be your waiter?? I suppose you would be understandable of waiters in restaurants only bringing youa half arsed dodgy meal in a restaurant if they wernt happy with your demenour? Wake up guys!!!

    And you want to know where all this hostility comes from?? EXPERIENCE!!!! I used to do the bend over backwards Mr Nice guy bring em coffee and beers game-that was until they kept taking advantage of me and screwing me over. So now I treat like they should be treated-as a pure business relationship, no favours, and if the job doesnt get done right then no  money till it is. And guess what-my experiences with em are all rosey now!!! :)

    Little story that was the straw that broke the camels back-had a shower that needed to be retiled. Needed the cement sheeting replaced also. Got a quote from the guy, cool, told him he had the job. Was making him coffees, even made him a sadwich for lunch etc Then he tells me 'sorry mate guna have to do a lot more work-got repack all the walls blah blah blah that will be another $500' I think geeeezus, ok whatever and agree-again being Mr nice guy and trusting him. Well I go  in 15 mins later to see that this $500 worth of work only involved using a few scap bits of sheeting to bring the walls of the shower out-a 2 minute job at best. I crack the shits and ask him where all this extra work that the $500 is? He just stares at me blankly for a few minutes liek a kid caught with his hand in the lolly jar and then for the classic 'well mate I can leave right now if you want but good luck getting someone to replace me!!'  Hows it go L.A…'Good guy'……….

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