Here’s John T. Reed’s link to dodgy guru spotting. He’s an American, but much of the article will resonate for any guru, no matter where he or she is located. The article covers 44 points, and it’s a bit long, but I reckon it’s good.
Lots of people ask on this Forum about particular gurus. Well, if you check this list and the characteristics of the guru are in the article, caveat emptor:
kay henryCastleDreamerParticipant@castledreamerJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 288
I read it from top to bottom, actually an interesting read. I will be watching my university lecturers with care now – will they pass the BS meter!!!
Seriously, I don’t agree with all that is said fully, but it is definitely on the ball in many ways I think. Thanks KayH
“+CF properties in NZ available now, email CastleDreamer or Minimogul”Michael RMember@michael-rJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 302
Take from the following articles what you will, but having read these authors [“?”] books quite recently – and having intimate knowledge of transactions both parties have been or currently are involved with, I would have to agree with most of John T. Reed’s comments – although somewhat cynical at times:
Personally, I have no problem with people such as DeRoos and Kiyosaki promoting a sense of direction or generating enthusiasm, but the reality is these books contain fictional and unsubstantiated stories, experiences and methodologies which can be misleading.
What I do despise is people who have a mediocre track record/experience at best in the real world, and limited knowledge of investment/finance strategies beyond the basics, yet portray themselves as the opposite as a means selling stories – which in reality is the foundation of their supposed wealth, not real estate.
— MichaelYorkerMember@yorkerJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 306
Hmmmmm. There are indeed a great deal of dodgy gurus out there. I really think in most cases its best to stick to the big names as they tend to actually back their seminars up with real life successes.FFCommMember@ffcommJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 627
“but the reality is these books contain fictional and unsubstantiated stories, experiences and methodologies which can be misleading.”
And unfortantly I have become independantly wealthy from them…
Lucifer_aukpMember@kpJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 509
Can you elaborate on what you are alluding to ?
(the intimate knowledge on what both parties are currently or have been involved in)
I notice they all seem to have ended up in Arizona as neighbours ( Burley, Kyosaki, De roos)
coincidence or not ??
I have always thought that these guys seem to promote “7 levels of investors” or “7 steps to wealth” all of which are “secret” whereas in fact the 8 step or level is to write and promote a book, and/or conduct seminars. Thats where the easy and leveraged money is.
It taps into the psyche of the majority of ordinary ppl out there who wish or dream of wealth….
KPSonjaMember@sonjaJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 338
Very interesting article Kay. There are a number of “gurus” that I wonder about. Very few pass this test!!!
What I so GET is how when you’ve realised how it all works yourself, you don’t want to be on your rich island alone, you want all your mates to be there too. it’s natural to want to share that with people. OK, not every successful investor is going to have the ‘calling’ to go public with information, and take it as big as demand will let them. But i still get it!
If I tell a friend everything I know and get them started with their wealth creation, as I have done! Loads! – – well, that’s fairly time consuming. I mean, one to one is time-consuming as a concept, not that I begrudge spending time with a friend and hooking them up!
but if…I over the months put it into a format that a lot of people can benefit from – writing it down, and structuring it a bit, such as what Castle Dreamer and I do with our ‘you know what’ mailing list (not wanting this to be just an excuse for a plug!) – then am I an info-preneur? maybe, kinda. In a different way than a seminar person, but with the same principle. If you have information and you package it, you enabling more people to get it in less time – hey, there’s the leverage.
So people get to leverage off information that we as investors – specialising in a particular area – have gained. Like nuts and bolts practical information. Whereas Kiyosaki and De Roos give you the theoretical information.
Kiyosaki writes about how he made his money from building businesses, (velcro wallets and whatnot!) losing it all, starting again, building it back up – and it was only when he ‘retired’ and had a think about ‘what next???’ in his log cabin (BTW his friends were all betting that he couldn’t just do nothing for very long!) – that he realised he was bored, and he wrote his book.
which he had to self-publish and stick on the counter of a friend’s gas station to get it off the ground!
Kiyosaki confesses all the time that he’s ‘not that smart’ and he doesn’t even fancy himself as a great writer. Nevertheless his book struck a chord. (with Oprah, which would have helped!) It’s s-i-m-p-l-i-f-i-e-d for people who may not own a calculator. But once you GET the principles the calculator can follow! And I don’t care if it’s a story or not. The one minute millionaire is a story, a made-up story. but the teaching of the principals of wealth creation are right there!
Kiyosaki also said that he always surrounds himself with people who are smarter than he is. Cue Dolf de Roos. Who Kiyosaki says is more of a property expert than he is!
And Dolf de Roos is certainly not making up stories. Some things he is doing in real life are visible for all to see.
Check out his website for the property ventures he’s doing. They are great, and he’s the first to do anything like that in his areas. his developments have a lot of style. I think he’s great.
So he may be a big time developer these days, but Dolf got started buying single family homes just like I am doing now. And that’s what he teaches. of course when you get to where he is, you don’t need the seminar. The seminars and the help are for people starting out.
joy to the world
I’ve just read his guru watch list and I reckon I could just about rebut every single one.
And you know what, if I thought he would read it, or post it on his site, I would.
Just picking one at random:
his words I have quoted, unquoted is me.
“26. Advocating the use of independent, percentage-of-the-gross property managers.”
” Good property-management companies are virtually nonexistent.”
” Experienced real-estate investors know this.”
“But inexperienced investors do not and are often turned off by the idea of fixing toilets and other property-management chores. So B.S. artist gurus falsely tell these novices that they can eliminate these unpleasant chores by simply hiring a good property-management company.”
it’s not BS! it’s the ONLY way to own a whole lot of properties and not have it become a full-time job! Of course I only buy in places where I know there is rental demand and good managers.
“In short, the problem with property-management companies is that they neglect your property and use high-cost suppliers and subcontractors often in order to get kickbacks from them.”
the only way he can get away with that is to be general. If he said that about a particular property management company, he would be done!
“Property management is too entrepreneurial to farm out. You can hire a custodian to perform some mundane, routine chores, like depositing rent checks in the bank. But you cannot hire an entrepreneur.”
I don’t expect my property managers to be entrepreneurs. If they were, they probably wouldn’t be property managers. What I want them to do is let the property, collect the rent, advise me of what needs doing. have the work done.
“You must manage property yourself or hire a salaried, in-house person to do it.”
I do hire a salaried, in-house person to do it – it’s just that this person is a salaried, in-house person of a professional property management company, licensed, and who complies with the law and everything else.
I can’t believe this guy.
how could you possibly manage 100 properties yourself? Unless you want a J-O-B? Also, that means you can only buy in your neighbourhood or else it’s just impractical.
Yeah, well, this guy is a dork.
Most of his other points are equally stoopid.
And if I didn’t have better things to do with my time I’d rebut them all one by one.
joy to the worldFWMember@fwJoin Date: 2002Post Count: 478
I agree with you Mini, there’s no way I’d manage my properties myself. What if you want to buy in a cashflow positive area that’s interstate? I agree it can be hard to find good ones, but the good ones are gold.
Plus I’d be a sucker for every hard luck story of why my tenants can’t pay the rent this week….! No thanks, let the professionals do it.
FelicityredwingParticipant@redwingJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 2,733
Agree with a lot of what you said also mini…
my 2c.. read and absorb what you can from ‘everyone’, form a strategy that ‘suits’ you.
And build a network of friends that you can ‘bounce’ ideas and experiences with, everyone has different strengths, weaknesses, knowledge and experiences..utilise them
this forum is a great place to meetlike-minded investors and gather knowledge..
thanks to all
“Money is a currency, like electricity and it requires momentum to make it Effective”
Count The Currency With This Online Positive Cashflow CalculatorpelicanMember@pelicanJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 454
This whole issue has been discussed before…. and even John T Reed “DON’T GET IT…”
It’s about the principles / philosophy’s of investing….. Do we REALLY care about RICH DAD being real or not ??? I certainly dont…. it’s the lessons on life / wealth and investing that I care about, and they HAVE DEFINITELY helped…..
IT’s THE MESSAGE YOU DUMMY !!! not the point by point fact breakdown….. simply put many of John Reed’s comments also dont add up…..
Dolf De Roos gets a “roasting by association” because he’s linked to Kiyosaki…..
We all have different paths to follow…. Some people forget that a lot of the books, even Steve’s, are not “HOW TO” they are “WHAT I DID” along with some guiding words to help you start your own journey….
Each to his own….. we are all different….. it’s often what we take from the many books that guides us to invest & live the way we do….. Do I want to be mini-Steve ?? NO…. I want to do things my way…… Did Steve / Rick Otton / Robert Allen / Dolf De Roos / Peter Spann / Napoleon Hill / others help me…… Sure did…
I rest my case…… DOH !!!PhoenixrisingMember@phoenixrisingJoin Date: 2002Post Count: 58
I wonder what Mr Reed would say about “The Richest Man In Babylon” ?
Can’t be proven?
Too far into history?
Maybe hire Shirley Maclaine and do a past life search?
To me its a very uplifting parable and I’m happy with that
“When you can walk on water…take the boat”
yes, yes, and yes to all who posted after me!
I just hate how FEAR headlines have this kind of attraction for….OK I’ll say it….all the people who aren’t doing anything, who are looking for validation for doing nothing.
“look, these guys are crooks, leading people astray, it doesn’t work, they are hoaxes, I knew it, I am right to do nothing”.
cause we all know there’s a hell of a lot more of them out there (95 percent) than the doers and achievers who actually do create wealth. (5 percent.)
That guy is just leveraging off the fear of the majority. Huh! Oh, as is jenman. by the way.
hey, if I hadn’t gone down the path of finding out stuff for myself and getting off my ass and doing stuff and getting out the calculator and getting stuck into educating myself about anything and everything property-related, hours of phone calls, web research, the whole BIT, i would probably still be a chicken sitting here reading Treed or whatever the hell his name is and going nowhere.
joy to the world
Ahhh, well… 270 people have read this thread. Perhaps some people got something from it. If others don’t like it, comme ci, comme ca.
kay henryFFCommMember@ffcommJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 627
Me managing properties???
It gets a bit hard when your nearest property is 2 hrs away BY PLANE!!!!
And really I donâ€™t even know how a toilet works (you press a button and it flushes!). So Iâ€™ve got no idea how to fix one anywayâ€¦
So I will disagree with Mr T Reed. There are excellent Property managers out there â€“ Otherwise I wouldn’t be here… I would be trying to fix a toilet…
I agree with Mini – John T Reed, works on fear.
As for the points he makes (on Dolf De Roos, I did not read the R.Kiyodsaki comments), some are valid (for a US book he probably should of called property instead of real estate, etc), but two things – 1) His primary goal Iâ€™m guessing is not to write books, its probably to invest in real estate. 2) Out of 150 page book he has managed to extract 50 sentences that he disagrees with. 50 sentences out of 150 pages (sorry it’s actually more like 160 pagesâ€¦).
And many of the comments he makes are debateable, and can favour of Dolf De Roos,just as much as J.T Reed. For example, Dolf writes: Never put more than zero or very little down p. 151; Reed counters: Many successful investors always put 100% down. Well I think I’m doing okay because I’ve retired, and I have never put 100% down, I try to get away with the bare minimum (5%). I think any investor dislikes to tie up large slabs of cash, I know one investor who owns over 100 properties and she always puts down the bear minimum. Most investors want to put their cash down and get as much back as soon as it is possible, you donâ€™t do that buy putting down 100%.
Or another debateable that could be in favour of Dolf De Roos. For example, Dolf writes: says plumbers and such will always work on your job first if you pay their bills the day you receive them. claims this is a â€œfoolproof methodâ€ p. 120; Reed counters: In my experience, subcontractors expect to be paid when they complete the jobâ€”before they leave your property.
Well guess what, from the invoices I have received (and from a couple of friends who are tradies) every invoice with payment in 30 days. I know some don’t, but I know alot who do (I worked with a property maintenance guy when I was young (painting, demolishing stuff, etc) – and it was 30 day terms). My property maintenance guy said on a couple of occasions â€œdo a good job on this, because we get paid as soon as we finish this oneâ€.
You could go on and on, but whats the pointâ€¦ It simply wastes peoples time.
(For more check out MiniMogulâ€™s post).
You could show similar â€˜problemsâ€™ in any book (War and Peace included!).
I think what I most dislike about John T Reed, is how he puts others down to sell his own (multiple) products.
And this is how pathetic it gets with John T Reeds B.S. detector.
13. No index -Guilty
So Dolf De Roos doesnâ€™t include an index and some how that means Dolf somehow is a B.S. artist?
Well there is a book called â€˜The Millionaire Next Doorâ€™ and there is no index in that book. Well I guess T.Stanley (Ph.D) & W.Danko (PhD) must be B.S. artist too (if we go by John T Reeds â€œtestâ€). The book is a statistical analysis on Americaâ€™s millionaires.
As for J.T Reed being the saint he proclaims to be, I leave you with the title of one his books: â€˜How to Buy Real Estate for Little or No Money Downâ€™.
Now My B.S. detector is going off!
Lucifer_aupelicanMember@pelicanJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 454
I Think we can say that John T Reed is America’s version of Neil Jenman…..
Striking fear into people so that he can sell his own products / systems……trisha007Member@trisha007Join Date: 2004Post Count: 85
I would just like to say, as a baby [baby]investor, I would still be wondering how and what I would retire on,
if I did not have my rental management company, or read all those books (Steves, Kiyosakis)
Now I have goals and ideals, as well as a fully managed investment property that I dont have to worry about!
great forum guys and gals,
Well, yeah… the property management stuff only made up a bit of the article. There’s 44 points.
Whether this issue- dodgy gurus- has been discussed before or not… there’s always new people coming onto the Forum, and people can have access to all kinds of info.