The capitalised word indicates what you may be. Are you an INVESTOR who looks at many different markets or avenues (shares/businesses/start-ups etc) or a PROPERTY investor who only invests in this area.
I don’t think there is a difference.
Splitting hairs here – what people are suggesting is that Investors use property as one of their investing vehicles whilst a property investor ONLY uses property.
[biggrin]Simon Macks
Mortgage Broker
http://www.mortgagehunter.com.au
0425 228 985Comments may not be relevant to individual circumstances. If you intend making any investment, financial or taxation decision you should consult a professional adviser.
Hi guys
Gee i hate to admitt it but i have to agree with Yack how can you turn 10k in the stock market into 500K in 7 years, it is IMPOSSIBLE, unless you take a huge risk, those that take this risk will lose everything more often than they make 500K or even 50k for that matter.
All this talk about leverage in shares, sure its possible but you have to use high risk strategies or use Margin Loan Products that will at best loan 70% for a limited number of shares.
Don’t get me wrong i’m into shares but i’ve been around long enough to know what really happens in the stockmarket. I currently own shares and will buy some more and increase my holding but i don’t have the expectations that the returns will be spectacular, because they wont and neither will the retruns of those who think they are on a winning magical formular.Aceyducey you made some comments before directed to me, you said
Westan,On the basis of your post it sounds like you’re a PROPERTY investor under my definition.fair enough, but i don’t see it that way, its just been the past 7 years have been best to invest in property. But 1999 was fun for shares.
An informed investor in any area should do well. It’s simply about where you choose to be informed.Sure, but don’t expect their returns to be equal. sometime property will be the place to be sometimes elsewhere.
If you focus on property (or indeed on any other investment class) & don’t inform yourself about te other investment options how do you know if you’re choosing the best vehicle for your investment goals?exactly, you have to know whats going on.
Choosing to be blind to different investments doesn’t make you a more successful investor – it makes you less successful.agree
If you look at the most successful investors, very few are property specialists. They virtually all focus on being investment specialists – knowing how to use a dollar to make two, regardless of the asset.i’m inclined to agree , but a lot successful people find their area and work it well, its hard to become an expert in too many fields.
regards westan
I live in New Zealand and for a fee find cash positive deals there, email me at [email protected] to join our database
Originally posted by westan:Gee i hate to admitt it but i have to agree with Yack how can you turn 10k in the stock market into 500K in 7 years, it is IMPOSSIBLE, unless you take a huge risk, those that take this risk will lose everything more often than they make 500K or even 50k for that matter.
It’s impossible to buy 130 properties in 3.5 years as well – just ask the average person on the street [cap]
What is and isn’t imossible is defined more by peoples’ beliefs than reality.
Who’d believe people could fly? Could run fast enough to break the 4 minute mile? Could reach the moon from a standing start in less than 10 years? Would watch reality TV programs? Or want to eat icecream with oysters, plum jam & olives (that’s a pregnancy story)?
ATM I’m sitting on one stock investment that has done 1/3 as well as that ‘impossible’ level – but it only took six months, so I’ve got a bit more time before the ‘impossible’ timer is up. Give me another 6.5 years & I’ll let you know.
Some people in this thread have said that they feel shares are too hard……many of the share traders I know feel the same way about property.
Cheers,
Aceyducey
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.– Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
Hi Yack,
you have a good point, but as a trader and property investor, you have to weigh up both sides, for example, your example was great but that can also apply to property… we cant always say that property goes up in value… and the opening and closing cost of each property deal, plus negative gearing if not done correctly and completly wipe out a years profit…
eg… lets say you buy a property for $10k and $5k for closing cost on a $100k investment property, after one year, your property is now worth still the same, your money may sit there but you still havent covered cost, or earnt any money on your investment too, another problem is, if you have negatively geared this property your running at a loss…, you might get tax breaks…
but still your in a loss position, but again depending on the investor, yes you can make money on property, but you can easily make money on stocks too…
and the same way goes round for both…. in both investment vehicles you can lose money too…
not saying anything bad… but as investor/trader… both investment vechiles have weight and arguement of why they both succeed.
Cheers,
sisHi acey
yes its a pity people feel that way about shares because shares are great, they are a lot more fun than property. But there is certainly a risk, as there is with buying property in todays market.
Acey well done with your share investment but if you’ve been around a while and i think you have you know that it doesn’t happen, there aren’t lots of people out there who have turned 10k into 500k, but i know guys that have turned $200k into $0 (no not me). His sure thing stock which made him a packet turned nasty and is in liquidation.
The problem with shares is peoples attitude to loss, you have to be prepared that sometimes in the stockmarket you will lose money, while at the moment not too many have lost money in the Property. Think how much did we loved dotcom stocks in 1999, i loved looking at the computer to see how much i had made each day.
regards westan
I live in New Zealand and for a fee find cash positive deals there, email me at [email protected] to join our database
Originally posted by yack:Well I can only go on my experience.
Back in 1997 my wife and I only had $10k. Now we have equity worth over $500k. And over $100k in redraw facilities – access by netbank.
I find it hard to believe anyone could have started in 1997 with $10k and have over $500k in shares now.
You should get out more yack. There are many!
<<<<You should get out more yack. There are many!>>>
Please enlighten me. Give me some examples of Joe Average who has invested in shares and started with $10k and turned it into $500k.
Hi Yack,
heres a quick example of making money in the stock market…
lets say your buying some midcap shares (lets have some volitality), you might be only shares at the $1 mark, you buy $10,000 worth, you sell them a half an hour later at a 2.5% profit, doesnt sound like much, but a 2.5% increase on a $1 stock is only $1.025…
if you bought $10k’s worth, you just made $250 in about half an hour… you know the share is on an uptrend (through technical analysis) you buy the share back at a $1 and repeat the cycle, you might do 2-5 of these in a day…. lets be conservative and lets say you just break even on $1k each day so thats saying (4 wins 1 loss)
quickly after 10 days, you now have 20k… you call up your broker and ask to set up a margin loan facility, you ask for a margin lend of $20k, after 2 weeks in the stock market you have $40k… and so on…
another thing with shares and equities, you can make money in any market, as long as you know how… for eg.. bull, bear, sideway market, even you dont have to be there, just call your broker or set your conditional orders.
Larry Williams – Australian Trader, has manage to turn $10k into $2mill in one year…
William Gann – Manage to make a consistent $1mill each year and made more than $50mill and started with nothing (by the way he traded his way through the 1930)
Loiuse Bedford, Guppy, David Novac, Dale Gillham and so on and on
and pretty sure there are many other traders, online here, who dont say much, but trade on a regular basis
but anyone who invested in stocks back in the dotcom… would have made a killing, yet we dont hear much of these guys, but they were almost doubling there money every day… just like how the property market has had its good run… in the last couple of years…
Cheers,
sis<<<Larry Williams – Australian Trader, has manage to turn $10k into $2mill in one year…
William Gann – Manage to make a consistent $1mill each year and made more than $50mill and started with nothing (by the way he traded his way through the 1930)
Loiuse Bedford, Guppy, David Novac, Dale Gillham >>>>Who are these people – are they the Donald Trumps of share trading or average Joes like me.
Yack – wrong question.
The question you should be asking is:
How do I stop being Joe Average and become as knowledgeable as these people?
The only one limiting you is yourself!
Cheers,
Aceyducey
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.– Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
Ok – Who are these people anyway?
Yack
Westpac rose 2% yesterday. That’s 2% in one day. How many houses do that?
Sure you need to be following the market closely to get in before this sort of thing occurs but if you started off in the morning with $100,000 in WBC yesterday you ended up $2000 richer by close of trade.
“Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a handsome and well preserved body, but better to skid in sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming . …… Hell, what a trip !!”
So do you have $100k to spend on shares? It could also go the other way and you now only got $98k.
I am in this for the long term. How many successful long term share traders out there.
How successful have you guys been? I have disclosed my success. Give me something that will make me think – yeah good stuff.
A guy from my work was excited about 6 months ago. A friend of his had made $20k on stock option trading in a month. So the 3 of them put in $20k each and let the guy trade. To cut a long story short – They each now only have $5k left.
Thats my experience.
Ahhh yes, the share market boom, they were crazy days. This thread takes me back…..
Every night in every city there were seminars – people flogging courses and technical analysis software. I remember in Bridge Street, Sydney, there was a day trading room where people could could rent a computer by the hour and day trade. It went well for a while – many people found trading from home a lonely pursuit. There were plenty of very active online forums – plenty of ‘ramping’ happening. Lots of people chucked in their day jobs to become ‘traders’. At every dinner party there was a trading expert (now everyone is a property expert).
I did a lot of trading during the boom – small caps, mid caps, positions that I held for 5 minutes, or a couple of days. Position sizes ranged from $5K to $100K – generally on margin. I traded the market long and short.
I had some spectacular wins and some catastrophic failures. But of course, I only talked up the wins.
My net result after a couple of years was a loss. It was great fun, though. Maybe I got greedy. Maybe I didn’t evolve my strategy as the market changed. Maybe I didn’t have enough discipline. At least I’d kept my day job.
I was a at a BBQ recently and the host was talking about his trading and how easy it was to trade from home and make $500 in 10 minutes. He had a captive audience – people were salivating at the prospect of making easy money in minutes from home.
I asked the host to go inside and get his contract notes (they show the ‘buy’ and ‘sell’ prices for trades). That stopped him in his tracks. I explained to people what they were. His best mate said: ‘Yeah, put up or shut up’.
I’m not sure whether I’ll be invited back.
Originally posted by yack:How successful have you guys been? I have disclosed my success. Give me something that will make me think – yeah good stuff.
OK, the company my wife works for was listed in 1995. The listed price was initially $1.00 but fell to $.80 within a few days.
The shares went to $10.00, were split and are now $5.11 (as of 20 minutes ago).
So in 9 years the share price has increased from $1.00 (or $.80) to effectively $10.20.
So your $10,000 is now worth $102,000.
I used to work for BRL Hardy, again a company that was listed a couple of years before the company above. The shares were also available at less than $1.00 not long after listing. The share price rose dramatically and then stagnated until it was taken over by a US company offering $10.50 a share in early 2003.
Again $1.00 to $10.50 in ten years.
I am not going to tell you how much we have made out of both these deals (and others) but suffice to say it is substantial.
“Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a handsome and well preserved body, but better to skid in sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming . …… Hell, what a trip !!”
Those examples are not share trading but passive investing. Similar to property investing.
<<<<<OK, the company my wife works for was listed in 1995. The listed price was initially $1.00 but fell to $.80 within a few days.
The shares went to $10.00, were split and are now $5.11 (as of 20 minutes ago).
So in 9 years the share price has increased from $1.00 (or $.80) to effectively $10.20.
So your $10,000 is now worth $102,000. >>>>Ok – 1997 I bought a 2 bed unit in Mentone, Victoria. Cost $90k, now worth $260k.
So my $10k deposit is now worth $180k.
ie. $$260k less owing ($90k-$10k) = $180k.
In fact the deposit was even less as I used the equity in my PPOR to buy the property.
OK, but I what about the interest on both your loans (IP and PPor – I am assuming you had two loans anyway).
I am talking pure profit here. There was no borrowing for the $10,000.
And don’t forget unfranked and fully franked dividends.
“Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a handsome and well preserved body, but better to skid in sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming . …… Hell, what a trip !!”
Ok. From my spreadsheets for each year. Here are my holding costs (rent less exps)
1998 (800)
1999 40
2000 500
2001 1300
2002 1500
2003 1600So in effect its put money in my pocket and allowed me to buy more properties.
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