the new reports oputlining the 25,000 shortfall in apprentices for various trades could have interesting implications for the property market. im not sure percentage relates to chippies but i can tell you one friend of mine who is a builder expects that his hourly rate will continue to go up over the next 10 years or so due to the lack new workers in the industry. therefore the cost of construction, renovation, extensions etc could become prohibitive. maybe the age old addage that land appreciates and houses depreciate could infact be temporised due tho the laws of supply and demand…
but then again maybe the expected softening of the construction market will offset the shortage of workers!
any thoughts???wilandelMember@wilandelJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 761
That’s a pretty sad story…
Perhaps the Gov’t should step in to offer incentives to get some young people off the dole, and into apprenticeships.
Why don’t people want to work these days? [glum2]
Probably they have all given up their “day” jobs to become full time property investors…[suave]
hi del. its an interesting one. heres what i reckon. since i was a kid i was brainwashed in thinking the only way to get ahead is to get a university degree. youre a loser if you dont pass your your high school certificate.
schools are also to blame being preoccupied with pass rates, tertiary acceptance rates etc etc.
everybit of govt propaganda you here is about the imprtance of having an educated nation etc etc
its funny – when i was a kid in thew 70’s and say a neighbour has a university degree – it was a big thing. the person was one of the ‘educated’ ones and they were seen as quite different to the norm.
we all then wanted the same thing hence the move away from apprenticships/trades
unfort now we all have ‘eductaion’, whats happened is that its less precious and industries like accounting, engineering, medicine etc have not seen the wage growth that they might have expected.
sounds long winded but i reckon the cure is for trades people to start earning heaps of money due to the current shortage of supply. kids will then look at their older counterparts and say why should i be a doctor and be in debt for 20 years when if im a plumber i can have my house paid off before im 30. so it hasd a cyclical element to it..
maybe its time for us 30 soemthings to retrain to a trade much like in the 80’s and early 90’s people were doing the same with computers….AceyduceyParticipant@aceyduceyJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 651
It’s impossible for ‘the cost of construction, renovation, extensions etc’ to become prohibitive.
Because people wouldn’t do them….tradies would start starving & be forced to reduce their rates.
When wages for tradies get high enough, people will stop targetting the unis & go for the trades….leading to lots of tradies, falling wages & a reversal of this trend.
Labour is an economic market based on supply & demand and the quality of the ‘product’ – just like all other markets.
PS: Having a uni degree doesn’t prevent someone from retraining!
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
– Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut
acey its not ‘impossible’ for cost of construction to become prohibative for ‘some’ people..at a momnent in time (happens everyday) and yes supply and demand will change that eventually – its just that i think lack of supply is the issue for some time to come.
btw financial review today recommends holding of building your own house due to the prohibitive costs..pg 27 smart investor
your point about wages being a market – is repeating my point (did you read the entire thread)
cheersShusharMember@shusharJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 190
I agree with Aussie – I think there is still a push for men to enter the more “educational” professions in the hope of a better salary. I’m thinking in particular of the computer industry. My son is doing his HSC this year & he & most of his friends just want to work in computing.
I think the downside to qualified tradesmen putting up their costs is that it will drive many people to DIY which may be a good or bad thing but I suspect alot of the work will be poorly done & very shoddy.
“All our dreams can come true, if we have the courage to pursue them.” – Walt Disneysizzling_duckMember@sizzling_duckJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 129
On ABC radio today they discussed this very thing. TAFE were not blaming the government on not doing enough btw, the system setup is a very good one, but rather the preconception that people should always go to uni.
Personally we can look at our ever increasingly ‘lazy lifestyles’, Tradies are quite often at a job at the ‘crack of dawn’ working in all types of weather and some of it is back-breaking stuff. It just doesn’t fit the plans of the majority who spend all day sitting on their backside. Many a time I have heard of tradies lamenting how many apprentices they have gone through because the little sods don’t want to work at all.
‘When wages for tradies get high enough, people will stop targetting the unis & go for the trades….leading to lots of tradies, falling wages & a reversal of this trend.’
This will probably not be true unless there is a major shift in the attitude of many kids. It is the ‘obese generation’ we are talking about where getting of their butt is only to get another packet of chips. I couldn’t imagine these same kids going for a vocation that would involve something akin to exercise in this situation.
Of course the starting pay isn’t great but you are effectively being paid to learn, you don’t owe institutions anything (not sure for all apprenticeships but sure most are free courses), and each year your wage increases so that by the time you are in 4th year there isn’t a great leap to a tradies wage. This might be a little out with the lack of tradies at the moment (the last wage point to move would be the apprentice wage) but still no reason why they shouldn’t stick it out.
sizzling – great point – apprentices are actually getting paid to learn…its obvious but i hadnt thought about it that way. its conventional to think its like slave labour but infact its like getting a grant to educate yourself…
if i had my time again i would certainly look closely at weighing up the benefits of =being inthe workplace and having no debt at the age of 22.
the price of education (uni and including private schools for years 10/11 and 12) and cost of buying a first home makes the traditonal university then get a job route seem way less attractive…
especially for investors!!sizzling_duckMember@sizzling_duckJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 129
It wasn’t all roses in the trades, especially during the early to mid 90s when many electrician employers either put employees on reduced hours or forced them to use holiday time up. They were not game to get rid of employees though and in many cases this is an excellent show of foresight.
Skilled labour is hard to get and sticking by your employees might mean they will stick by you. It is just harder to find those employees who you would want to stick by that is getting a problem..[worried]Fast LaneMember@fast-laneJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 527
I heard 30% of apprentices dont even finish their first year because they simply cant afford to do an apprenticeship. If you paid them more than $200 a week maybe more young people would be interested in doing one. The cost of living is through the roof and $200 per week for a whole year is absolutely shit. Especially with all the other alternatives nowadays.melbearMember@melbearJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 2,429
agreed g7, and when one of those alternatives is the dole that seems to pay almost the same – plus the young kids don’t have to do anything for it….
One of my cousins has just turned 17, and his girlfriend (25) is expecting their second child (her THIRD). As far as I’m aware, he gets paid $600 a fortnight to stay at home! This is in a country town, where living isn’t a high cost, so he’s not bothered to go and get a job at all!!
When I was a public servant, we had a young guy take leave without pay to go and do a plumbing apprenticeship. He was back within about 2 months, as he didn’t like the pay, and he obviously had to work – unlike his desk job!!
MelMTRParticipant@marisaJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 663
after reading posts, I believe you should have a chat to people who actually employ apprentices to get a real picture of the costs involved?
You will only then realise WHY THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF APPRENTICES …….ToolsParticipant@toolsJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 363
As a tradesman of 20 years,I have seen many apprentices come and go,and a fair percentage aren’t even worth the pay they receive.After one year of uni,I undertook four years of apprenticeship because I wanted to be a carpenter,not because I had to do something and an apprenticeship was an “easy” option.The bulk of apprentices I come across these days are there to fill in eight hours of the day (as are many tradesmen),not because they have an interest in a trade and want to learn.I am happy to teach apprentices who want to be carpenters,but have no time for those just filling in their day.I have a second year apprentice at the moment,and although not up to tradesman’s standard yet,he is brilliant,and will make a good tradesman when he is completed.We also have a first year who is just a waste of time.He is only there because he doesn’t like school,and his attitude shows…..he won’t be around much longer,and will end up on the dole.I also have a 38 year old friend who is a qaulified nurse with 20 years experience and a university degree,and he is looking for an apprenticeship.He will lose much flexibility inn his work,but when finished,will earn twice what he earns now.So a 4 year apprenticeship is really a small price to pay for the rewards at the end.
onya toolsyackMember@yackJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 1,206
This sort of applies to me.
My father was a builder and my brother did his carpentry apprenticeship with him. I went on to University and what got me going was that during School holidays, Dad dragged me to work. During Summer it was too hot and during winter it was too cold. So I was prepared to study so I could work in an office. In fact I was encouraged by my parents to do so.
On the other hand my brother now works for a builder who does alot of govt renovations and gets about $35 per hr. I have encouraged him to do the following;
1. Work for his Boss and on the days he is off due to weather or no work do the following –
2. Work on his own PPOR as this is all tax free ie. buy a house that needs fixing and renovate and then sell and upgrade.
3. Buy an investment property that needs work and fix it up. He has done a few and its amazing what he can do on the smell of an oily rag. ie. looks good for the little money he puts in.
4. He does some renos for me – so thats good money too.
So in the long run – I believe he will be better of than me, as long as he is prepared to invest in property in addition to work. Sometimes he gets a bit pissed. I hate doing this on weekends when I do this all week.
Sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice. But all I really need to do is spend a few days doing some work required on a rental property and I realise – yes I do prefer working in the office.lifeXMember@lifexJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 651
Choosing between uni and a trade, it can easily be argued that the uni path is a continuation of an inefficient education path that hides from the real world.
Uni students pop out the end of their years with a hecs debt and in a lot of cases “what do i do now” problem. Employers want experience.
Tradesman pop out the end with four years experience on the job, and usually contacts for many employers… the old “who you know” advantage.
The pay can be the same as professionals, if not more for a good tradesman. And if you are in commercial construction, industry, shift work and overtime. It is common to earn $80000pa and more.
Uni students would on the other hand be happy to find work on a low income at all.
Plus.. I think it is more rewarding work to be working with your hands rather than your ass. (friendly shot aimed at ya desk jockies).
Of course, I am a tradesman.
I think a shortage of apprentices would be caused more from government revenue driven regs and taxes than a shortage of willing new apprentices or employers that want apprentices.
As for finding apprentices willing to work, I think the Australian culture breeds the same ratio for actual tradesman.
Good tradesman are rare as hens teeth. Always have been, likely always will be.
lifexperiencebruhamParticipant@bruhamJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 189
If you’re looking for a tradesman, try the police force or the fire fighters or the pub,behind the bar that is,any other job but not in the trade you are looking for.
Why!!! Their pay is so poor that they earn better money else where.
I’m(was)a fitter and turner,Senior foreman for an engineering company for fifteen years. Found out that I could earn the same cash being a brikies labour.Later I did an certificate in engineering -diesel.
At this moment of time, I work on semi’s and heavy vehicles.Shit of a job!!!
But now the good news. I’m chucking it for a damned bus driver’s job.Sit on my bum for even better money.I have too practice been rude and obnoxious.And with me that come very easy.
Tools, I don’t know where you meet you’re trademen
but when I meet an apprentice they are red hot eager to prove their skills.I always tell them to suck every bit of imfo.out of the tradies.Work your bums off. Nothing is too much trouble. Never let the boss beat you.Show him you’re the best apprentice he ever employed.AceyduceyParticipant@aceyduceyJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 651
Einstein once said: “If I had my life to live over again, I’d be a plumber.”
Perhaps we need to encourage more kids to follow this path
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
– Jan L.A. van de SnepscheutSalubriousMember@salubriousJoin Date: 2004Post Count: 252
It sounds like the old term of the grass being greener.
I followed my mum’s advice and got a trade, “Automotive Vehicle Refinisher” classy term for spraypainter. It would have to be one of the most toxic filthy underpaid jobs on the planet.
At any given time I can pick up the paper and choose from as many positions as I can poke a stick at.
I hear my plumber mates whine and roofers etc etc we all do, its not pretty work. Like many other I left my trade and spread my wings. I obtained more qualifications in the building game.
But the one thing that holds it all back can be specified in 2 areas for lack of skilled tradesmen, No (1 is red tape for obtaining a license, in NSW you even need one to erect a friggin fence! This is due to all the 2) shonks, but having a piece of paper that say’s “I am a fully qualified xyz” means jack to me!
There are so many people out there who would love to get into sub-trades but it is too tough.
Look at my circumstances; I erected colorbond carports & patios for many years, working as an un-licensed sub-contractor underneath a dude who was licensed with a supervisor’s certificate. Tell me how could he supervise 5 organizations in 3 states with over 20 subbies????
When I left these guys after 5 years and tried to get my own fully-fledged installers license what do you think the dept of (Un) Fair trade told me?
WE need references!!! How could I get a reference of these guys? With a summons?
Gee, I wonder why there is a lack of tradies in every industry???
We are all made from StarsredwingParticipant@redwingJoin Date: 2003Post Count: 2,733
Many brickies labourers have takenup the tools and now call themselves ‘brickies’, same goes for tilers-be careful who does your job nowadays!!
The old argument from a while back springs up-get a trade or go to uni?
Heck- ECU are doing Uni Degrees in subjects such as “Surf Science”
“Money is a currency, like electricity and it requires momentum to make it Effective”
Count The Currency With This Online Positive Cashflow Calculator