All Topics / The Treasure Chest / Have we missed the Boat??

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  • Profile photo of crashycrashy
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    @crashy
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 736

    westan

    What am I wrong about?

    I said house prices fell 30%, I just gave 2 reliable sources which back it up. Now both say 25% instead of 30%, but lets not split hairs. I havent been able to find the article I based my comments on, but surely you can accept that house prices in Sydney and Melbourne rise and fall roughly in sync, and since it has been proven that Sydney prices fell 25%, why cant you accept that Melbourne did the same. Irrelevant anyway, the point is prices can fall large amounts, regardless of the city. Besides, you havent proved it didnt happen, you have given some yearly values which do not show changes through the year.
    It seems you are trying to tell people property prices cannot fall sharply, which of course they can, have, and will again. This is my point, prices in Sydney and Melbourne are likely to fall 30% in the coming years (backed up by the reports I posted).

    Its not about which of us is right about figures, its about warning people of the danger ahead.

    Profile photo of HousesOnlyHousesOnly
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    @housesonly
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 167

    Crashy
    Although I agree with you about the prices of property likely to correct sharply in the next few years, it starts getting a little silly trying to justify each others statistics. Anyone of you who know the smallest thing about statistical analysis will know that you can find exactly the sample of data you need to justify any case. All you have to do is adjust the selection criteria until the data matches. So lets not worry too much whether the figures quoted by the Surveyor General or the DNR or the REIA are the more accurate ones or if the figure is 15% or 30%. All these percentages can be proven correct. The bottom line is that there is a reckoning coming and it is going to be bigger than most people think.
    I completely agree that the issue here is about warning people and it just so happens that the Treasurer, Gov.of Res.Bank and heaps of others agree.

    Profile photo of westanwestan
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    @westan
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 1,950

    Hi crashy
    The logical outcome of your arguement should be whats the danger? according to what you are saying the market was so robust back then in the course of 1 yr it dropped 30% but by the end of the year it had regained it all. that sounds like the message should be don’t sell when a downturn happens because recent history says it is very short lived not a collaspse as you continually say.
    I think the real situation is as other have said some parts of the market dropped dramatically and in fact took years to recover. from memeory i think in Melbourne the top end suffered badly with Toorak prices coming off worst. But the Mean Price from official sales say there was no collaspse. Just a slight retraction and then a period of flat growth. This is typical, rarely does the market collapse never 30% in my lifetime. But then again we have never seen a bubble like this. Looking at the mean price Prices doubled between 1985 and 1989 then at the lowest point 1992 they were about 8% lower than in 1989. Investors had to wait till 1997 to see the levels of 1989 and then in the past 5 years they have doubled again. I’m happy to email the data.
    Regards westan

    Profile photo of HousesOnlyHousesOnly
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    @housesonly
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    Post Count: 167

    westan
    As I have mentioned before, the figures dont really matter and also you are right that over the long-term the market will recover. Just how long it will take to recover after this large bubble deflates is hard to say. I would just like to see fewer inexperienced mum & dad investors getting into this sellers market. The long-term reputation of the industry will be severely damaged in the same way the equity markets were when that bubble burst. I am in this industry for the long run and believe that the greed that is driving the industry at present is very unhealthy and will come back and bit us all.

    Profile photo of westanwestan
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    @westan
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 1,950

    Houseonly

    i agree. The way i see things panning out is- the inner city unit market will drop bigtime hurting a lot on inexperienced investors. What may happen is a ripple effect will move through the rest of the market, the magnitude and effect i’m not sure. When the equity market dropped some people lost a lot of there savings but if the inner city unit property market drops people will loose savings plus be bottom up, owing more than their property. these are the ones who should be worried.
    westan

    Profile photo of aussierogueaussierogue
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    @aussierogue
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 983

    its a long one

    August 20, 2003

    THE BULLETIN
    THE DEBT OFFENSIVE – MAX WALSH

    The Reserve Bank has belatedly realised that the longer the credit bubble
    continues, the greater will be the potential damage to the economy as a
    whole.

    Do not hold your breath waiting for another interest rate cut. The Reserve
    Bank of Australia is at last becoming seriously worried about the country’s
    credit bubble. Last week’s “Statement on Monetary Policy” was, by central
    bank standards, almost blunt about the risks now posed by our national
    descent into debt.

    The statement came in the wake of Ian Macfarlane’s reappointment as RBA
    governor for a final, limited term. Having decided that he will stick
    around for only another three years, Macfarlane has increased his
    “independence”. The importance of this rather depends on when and in what
    manner the present credit bubble deflates. Unfortunately, it has probably
    reached such proportions that it will pop with considerable adverse fallout
    across the economy.

    The RBA said as much in its statement when it noted: “Historically, credit
    booms have tended to end only after a protracted period of
    higher-than-average interest rates and/or a significant contraction in the
    economy.”

    The RBA calls it a credit boom. I call it a bubble both because of its
    dimensions and the degree of irrationality now associated with its most
    obvious manifestation: the scramble to buy residential investment
    properties. Where I live in Sydney, the “For Lease” signs in apartment
    windows now exceed the “For sale” signs and both are out there in strong
    numbers.

    Rents in some of the more popular areas are down by 25%. Yet investors are
    still buying apartments off the plan. Of course, they are being given
    “guaranteed” rental returns for a limited period. That return no surprise
    has been capitalised into the price.

    The accompanying table illustrates the way in which Australian investors
    are still being seduced by the bubble. Since 1995, credit has grown at an
    annual rate in Australia of 11.1%. In the latest year, the rate has been
    12.7%. But the real driver has been household credit, which has charged
    ahead in the latest year at an annual rate of 19.6%.

    The RBA says simply: “The current pace of household credit growth in
    Australia exceeds any reasonable benchmark by a large margin.” In fact, as
    the table shows, credit has been growing way too fast for eight years now.
    Between 1980 and 1995, household credit in Australia grew, on average, by
    about 3.75 percentage points faster than nominal GDP. Had this differential
    been maintained since 1995, the level of household credit outstanding would
    be almost a third lower than is currently the case.

    While Australia has a faster inflating ­bubble than anyone else, we are not
    alone in the credit bubble business. That raises the prospect of multiple
    hard landings.

    While there is no magic single figure, which tells you how fast credit
    should expand, the RBA suggests that Canada provides a useful benchmark
    because it has a long history of a relatively deregulated financial system
    that has avoided credit excesses and their painful consequences. There,
    credit has grown on average by about 1.5 percentage points faster than
    nominal GDP. None of the countries in the table have had inflation of more
    than 3% on average since 1995. Using the Canadian benchmark, credit growth
    should have averaged 4.5% or less.

    The RBA, in its past observations about the growth of credit in Australia,
    took comfort in the fact that debt, as a proportion of wealth, was not
    increasing. Also, it was reassured by the stable nature of the
    debt-to-household income ratio, despite the rapid growth in credit.

    That was institutional self-delusion on both counts. The increase in
    household wealth has been functionally related to a credit boom that has
    been financed with an interest-rate structure below its long-term average:
    unsustainable affordability.

    Furthermore, wealth in the form of the family home is qualitatively
    different from other forms of asset wealth. It is part of the family
    life-support system. It is notoriously illiquid, especially in weak
    markets. Transaction costs involved are extremely high.

    Housing prices do fall after credit bubbles. Even when they fall
    significantly, the extent of the price collapse is muted by the degree of
    balance-sheet consolidation people are prepared to undertake rather than
    take a heavy loss on their home.

    In the present bubble, the extent of consolidation in household accounts is
    likely to be severe because 40% of the value of all housing loans recently
    has been for investment purposes.

    These are negatively geared properties with deposits often financed by
    shifting equity from the family home. Such investments are structured to be
    financed by a combination of rental income and income from regular
    employment.

    If rental income is not forthcoming or is less than expected, that will
    involve diverting consumption activity towards debt service. With
    consumption spending the main source of national economic growth, such a
    diversion can set in train a cascading downturn in economic activity. That
    is what happened in Finland, Norway, Sweden, Japan and the United Kingdom
    following the popping of asset bubbles at the end of the 1980s. Australia
    itself went into recession, a number of our major financial institutions
    struggled to survive and a couple of state banks effectively went under.

    The institutional risks involved in credit bubbles have, I suspect, been
    underrated by the RBA. The banking system appears to be in pretty good
    condition because the banks have changed the way they do business.

    Credit risk, especially in the form of housing mortgages, is transferred by
    bundling and securitisation. Other credit risks are insured. That does not
    mean risks have been eliminated. In fact, there is a strong suspicion that
    securitisation has encouraged a far less rigorous approach to risk
    assessment.

    Central bankers believe that this spreading of risk across the financial
    system, rather than confining it to the banks, reduces the risk of a call
    for lender of last resort ­facilities to prevent a systemic crisis.

    But one of the consequences of this risk divestment strategy is that the
    authorities do not know where the cost of the collapse of the credit bubble
    will hit. What is self-evident is that the longer the bubble continues, the
    greater will be the potential damage to the economy as a whole. Ideally,
    the RBA should now be edging rates up to reinforce its so-far ineffective
    jawboning.

    However, while there have been some encouraging signs of improvement in the
    external environment, the global recovery is not yet guaranteed. The
    resurgence of bond yields in the US on the basis of modest indications of a
    pick-up in growth has raised concern that the recovery could be nipped in
    the bud.

    With an election due next year, Canberra would be looking for lower, not
    higher, interest rates. Governor Macfarlane’s independence may be put to
    the test.

    Profile photo of MiniMogulMiniMogul
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    @minimogul
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 1,414

    Hi

    Re Crashy v. Westan,

    AFAIK the top of the market suffers the most in a property downturn and the bottom of the market the least. So you can get the 3 million places for 2 million, perhaps – that gives crashy his 30 percent less – because less buyers in that bracket. but the ones under 500K if there is such a thing in Sydney, will never go down 30 percent.
    It’s up up up.

    Also crashy I think you have a very stock-market mentality about property investing, seems that’s your specialty, but the truth is that the property market is owner-occupier not investor driven – like I have said before on other threads- once people think ‘this is a nice place to live in our price-range’ they tend to stay there for a while. So it’s heaps slower to go through it’s waves- which aren’t as up and down radical as you’d like them to be in order for you to win your ‘shares are better’ argument.

    Like someone else said here which I totally agree with, it is the media affecting buyer confidence which controls the market, given the current absence of any real economic factors like inflation (capped) interest rates (low) demand (rising population) – and the economy, which are still all good – with the exception of apartments where supply might temporarily outstrip demand.

    cheers-
    Mini

    http://www.vocalbureau.com

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