Hi all,
I have a property that i’ve had for years near Fairfield in Sydney’s South West – it’s a huge old fibro place on a strange sort of shaped block.
The block itself is 570sq.m and it’s got a huge fontage although the block itself is not very deep.
My question is has anyone here knocked down an old house and built a duplex / dual occupancy place ??
I have not got the faintest idea where to start, but my eyes lit up when an agent told me i’d get around 450k for a new 4 bed duplex (it’s a nice quiet cul-de-sac near a very good school and shops) if i chose to redevelope…
To me that means 900k in total, compared to the 380 to 400k i’d get for the existing house…
Where do i start ?? Do i go and see the local council / town planner or do i see a builder ??
What kind of costs are involved ??
How many can i fit on the block ?? (I’m pretty sure only 2 but given the width 3 maybe ??)Any advice would be appreciated…
Cheers,
Paul… [
]“The only thing you get from looking backwards is a sore neck…”
G’day Paul…
Good on you.
Can I suggest that you don’t take on anything that you are lacking in expertise. For example, if you even tried a joint venture with a builder/developer they would eat you alive.
Try this idea on for size…
You need to educate yourself as to it’s true value. If it was mine I’d get 3 Agents ( and I’ve been one) in to give me their opinion as to what they reckon it’s worth and then ask them “How did you arrive at that price”? Don’t put any figure you have in mind to them it will only influence their thinking.
If you get figures within 5% of one another I would then get an independant Valuation and pay a few hundred dollars for it. I don’t just mean a market appraisal,but a sworn valuation…could even get two.
Then shop around as if you’re a buyer for something similar in comparable areas…by then Paul you’ll be a bloody expert on it’s value.
Now armed with more than an educated guess…put a firm price on it and offer it up for sale…try the developers direct first.
Good luck..
Bill O’Mara
Real Estate,Mortgages,Share Market Strategies.
[email protected]Thanks Bill, i figured you might have some good advice !! [
]I take it you mean make sure i can get it approved, then find out the developed properties “real world” price and then offer the block as a “subdivision potential” to the developers direct ??
Or did i miss something ?? [
]Cheers,
Paul…“The only thing you get from looking backwards is a sore neck…”
By the way, i’m just trying to “think outside the square” so to speak… [
]If i went ahead i’d do it owner builder so i know exactly what is happening – i have never done it but the old man has (spent 400k to create a 700k property, so he has proven he knows what to do and has heaps of good tradesmen).
I think this could be a golden opportunity towards my ultimate goal… The first step is always the hardest right ??
Cheers,
Paul…“The only thing you get from looking backwards is a sore neck…”
Paul….
I didn’t realise it was you … sorry.
That’s right Paul…wait until I respond to your first post….then come back with more facts.[
!]Get your Dad in on the act. Otherwise sell it direct to a developer once you have educated yourself as to it’s true worth.
G’night
Bill O’Mara
Real Estate,Mortgages,Share Market Strategies.
[email protected]I suggest you call the duty planner at council and find out what the potential actually is rather than go on what the agent tells you is possible.
In my experience they have always been very helpful.
Cheers,
Simon Macks
Mortgage Broker
[email protected]
0425 228 985Comments may not be relevant to individual circumstances. If you intend making any investment, financial or taxation decision you should consult a professional adviser.
Hi Paul,
There is no doubt that if you subdivide yourself you will make much more money.
We do subdivide blocks in Melbourne.
It is very long road though it takes time could be easily a couple of years by the time you get it through the council then find a builder or if you decide to subcontract the work yourself. If you have not done this before I would say don’t do it alone get your dad on board a lot of things you need to know and a lot of things could and usually do go wrong.
In your case my advice is to subdivide it get it through the council and then sell it with the permits and plans.
The most money is made when you subdivide the block not when you are building on it. Very often is not worth the hassle.Maggie
LOL !! Sorry Bill… [
]Thanks for the replies – what i meant by getting the old man on board is that he has experience with owner builder stuff – not actual subdivision of an existing property…
That’s why i was asking about councils etc… [
]Cheers,
Paul…“The only thing you get from looking backwards is a sore neck…”
Paul,
I am a new homes consultant with a major project builder in Adelaide. When I was recently in head office I dealt with 100’s of developers/ amateurs. And most got it wrong & cost themselves $1,000’s of $ more – so they end up trying to screw the builder for the $ the waste elsewhere.
At the risk of sounding dogmatic, follow these steps & advice & you can’t go wrong! Diverge & it will cost you money & worst of all time…
This works in SA & should work the same anywhere.
Here’s what you do in CORRECT ORDER:
1. Speak to a Planning Officer at council FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!! Ask that the person you are speaking too IS a planning officer, if not, ask for one.
Ask them for the following info:
a)Min. block size for detached & semi-detached dwellings – this will determine whether you can subdivide in your area in the first place;
b) Setbacks to front, side, secondary street frontage (if on corner block) & rear (setbacks are from external wall to boundary);
c)If 2 storey ask if upper level setbaks are different – but avoid 2 storeys if possible, to hard & local residents may object;
d)Private Open Space requirements (space they want in the backyard)- it may be % of allotment size or Xm2 per bedroom (& yes, a study usually counts as a bedroom – planners are not stupid), also ask for the min. dimension for POS (usually 2.5m, so you can’t use the 900mmm walkway down the side) & they usually want a Xm x Xm rectangle to fit in teh POS area which is directly accessible from a living area;
e)Ask for any other requirements.
Don’t let them just send you out their requirements. If you ask these specific questions they will think you are a pro & will be happy to help.
2. NEVER ARGUE WITH A PLANNER!!! Accept what they tell you & make your plans comply to their requirements. After all you are simply building an investment home, not your PPOR. So don’t reinvent the wheel otherwise your planning approval could take years, instead of 4 to 8 weeks. GET THE MESSAGE!!!!!!
3. Choose a volume project builder based on quality & price. Tell them Council requirements – the consultant will love you for this beacause you have proven that you are doing your homework (Here’s a secret – most building consultants HATE dealing with investors – they are very LAZY, they LIE & they PENNY PINCH – not worth getting grey hair over).
The builder can draw you ACCURATE plans (usually for a small fee – excpect to spend $500 to $1,500) based on your requirements. Ask for an estimate of cost before comitting them to draw plans.
NEVER EVER expect a builder to do plans or any detailed work for free. Pay peanuts & you get monkeys.
Your plans should be totally complying to Council reqs. If not, make sure you only have ONE strike against you, More than one & they may be rejected or subject to alteration.
4. Submit plans to Council for subdivision approval.
5. If Council appear to approve, sign building contracts right away. Otherwise wait for formal approval before signing in case things change.
THAT”S IT!!!
Also some other important guidelines:
* NEVER EVER use a building design company or architect – they will rip you off. Plus they only draw plans for council approval – NOT BUILDING. I have so many owner designs sent in with BAD MISTAKES on them.
They will typically charge you $2,000 for simple plans right up to or over $10,000 including full engineers consrtuction reports & council approvals (planning & building). yet your project builder will only chrge you the deposit when signing which is typically $1,200 or $1,500 to do the same work (& accurately too).
* If you do want to have a set of plans to shop around for price, then just get a draftsman to do them (preferably one that has worked in a project building company before). You don’t need an expensive architect or building designer. Plus avoid them talking you into doing the full preconstruction stuff I mentioned above. That’s how they make more money off you.
* NEVER EVER BUILD YOURSELF – Why? Banks don’t like you, trades don’t like you, & councils don’t like you.
My best friend is a builder who does terracotta roof tiles. He used to build his own IP’s. Now he comes to me to do them. Us project builder’s can do them MUCH CHEAPER, FASTER & with with LESS HEADACHES than a small builder can;
* DON’T use a small builder for IP’s – they are too expensive, & may not be able to adequately insure the whole project.
Well here end’s my lesson for the day (exit my soapboax).
Amen!
No go forth & multiply your wealth [
][}][]Good Luck!!!
David Paxton
“You Only Live Twice”That’s an excellent response – big thanks David!! [^][
][]I am printing it off to show my partner who wants to head in this direction too.
Where are you based?
[
]
Mel
[email protected]AS did I. Very great response.
Thanks for your expertise.If you build 2 homes that are joined, a duplex, do you still have to subdivide the block?
In SA you still have to lodge subdivision plans for provisional planning consent for land division. But you may do the land division later if you plan to keep both properties.
However, if you plan to sell at least one you want to get the subdivision underway immediately. As it can take our beloved Land Titles Office about 4-6 months to issue the new titles. And you need the new titles in order to sell.
That is usually done will the building contracts are going through their pre-construction (now 4-6 months) & construction pahases (also 4-6 months for single storey).
Even if you plan to construct 2 or 3 on the one title for now (long term build & lease strategy), councils require you to lodge for land use or land division approval, & meet the requirements mentiond in my post above. As they always assume that ONE DAY you may want to do the subdivision.
Interestingly, I always wonder with that strategy, what would happen if council’s planning requirements change over that time???
That would be a question for your surveyor or conveyancor.
Oh, I did forget to mention B4 that between steps 1. & 2. you should appoint a surveyor to quote & prepare for land division. You could also use a conveyancor, but I would just use the surveyor to do the whole lot to save any double charges.
The surveyor would do the Community Title or Torrens Title subdivision for you once you receive formal provisional planning consent from council.
Also…..Council requirements for setbacks & block size may differ depending whether you go for Community Title (typically for unit developments), or Torrens Title (typically for indiviual villas or houses – no body corporates).
Cheers,
David Paxton
“You Only Live Twice”Wow, thank you for that incredible response !! [
]I will take on board your advice, off to see Mr Council man in the morning, thanks again !! [
]Cheers,
Paul…“The only thing you get from looking backwards is a sore neck…”
Mikeej,
A duplex can either be subdivided or strata titled.
Best to check with the relevant council.
Cheers,
Simon Macks
Mortgage Broker
[email protected]
0425 228 985Comments may not be relevant to individual circumstances. If you intend making any investment, financial or taxation decision you should consult a professional adviser.
Am doing a subdivision myself at the moment. The thing that I found was with Strata title you get paid upon registration of the strata plan which means you have t build all the buildings to a fair extent.
With community title you can build one, sell, build again. As I am proposing to do 8 the community title is the way to go for me!
After visiting the Council let me tell you the lady behind the desk is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike… [
]After making me tell the whole story of what i wanted to do she then tells me she can’t help me, and the planner is unavailable – i guess it would have been nice to tell me that earlier !!
There’s 40 minutes of my life gone… and damnit i have to go back tomorrow !! []Ahh well, there’s some saying about being persistant right ?? [
]Cheers,
Paul…“The only thing you get from looking backwards is a sore neck…”
Paul,
Tsk Tsk…
Didn’t I tell you…. ask if they are a planner FIRST!
Live & learn.
Good Luck!
David Paxton
“You Only Live Twice”Well, well, well. Just when I was reading for fun along comes a veritable goldmine of information!! Thank you David![
] This is just what I need to stop a marginal investment decision turning into a shocker!!I too was just reading like wizz, and was so impressed with your information.
your a fairdinkem champion dave.
thanks
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