Also cuteyoungchic…
We don’t charge like wounded bulls, we charge what we believe we are worth & all the other trades we work with are all doing quite well.
I have never been called back to a job as we believe do it once, do it properly & charge accordingly.
Your ok with your lawyer charging $350 per hour, but we are ripping people off by charging $150 -$250 an hour??
You justify spending $350 per hour on a lawyer because he saved you money, just shows your mentality & exactly the type of people I don’t work for….
Your job that has been waiting 12 years can keep waiting, not only myself but everyone else in the trade sector is busy enough to not worry about little jobs & when you stop being a tight arse someone will come out & do the job
Don’t say we are losing out because your too tight to spend money getting a job done, the day you do decide to get the job done is the day you decide to spend some money & the day someone like me will be making $250+ an hour to do itThe only people that will come out & work for what you call fair prices & what we call peanuts are the handymen who can’t do any job properly…
Richard the sparky
Rich Sparky,
You want to do something about that anger problem of yours mate.
It's making you see things differently from the way they're portrayed!I am not sure if this has been posted in any of the posts before.
below is a website created and owned by Justin Herald
http://www.trustytradesman.com.au/
The WILL needs to stronger than SKILL.
Free??free, thanks so much for the link to trustytradesmen. I'm onto it!
Cheersfree wrote:I am not sure if this has been posted in any of the posts before.below is a website created and owned by Justin Herald
http://www.trustytradesman.com.au/
The WILL needs to stronger than SKILL.
Free??Thanks for that link. It’s the first free advertising I have seen for many years, just hope it works
The only way out of your dilemma ttman, as I see it, is this. You have to tell your prop. manager you want quotes on everything before work is done. You want to know the hourly rate for the electricians, plumbers, handymen etc they hire and no account gets paid from rent and is sent to you personally.
If the rates don't suit, then you have to take control and find people who will do the job at the rate you want to pay. That may mean hunting them down next time you are in the locale of your property. It can be done, but takes a bit of effort. Get references from others and the people here on this forum may be able to help.
You might want to calm down a bit though – but I feel your anger.
I've had the same problems. $66 to change a tap washer, $132 to educate a tenant on the evaporative cooling system, $110 per hour for an electrican AND his apprentice to check a meter board. This sparky is charging out his apprentice to the tune of $30 per hour and I'm sure getting gov't assistance. Since when does a first year apprentice earn $55k per year? (or do they). My last beef was paying a handyman $66 per hour. Thats over $100k per year for a handyman and the property manager thought this was ok.
Anyway, I now have found tradesmen that do the job for the right costs and this is at properties hundreds of kms from where I live. They are out there and a good handyman can do everything bar the elect and plumbing for $30per hr. including changing a light bulb.
Hope it works out for you.
Ian
http://theblockblog.com
Free Property Investor Information. Tools & Resources for Property Investors with a Sense of Humour.Hi all I think ur kidding urself if u think electrician shud b done in 1 year. They do there time soo everyone can b more safe. Funny how ppl in general always assume something is easy to do when they rnt in that field. Charge out rate is for fuel and there travel time. Hrly rate is standard. Also if they find something wrong with ur system that’s stilll going out spending there time and doing a test no matter what people think that’s money they still made. But don’t forget that’s an easy job, they have harder and longer jobs by far some wud even prefer doing longer bigger jobs as it pays more for the day. Like with anyjob there are easy days and there are harder days.
sapphire101 wrote:The only way out of your dilemma ttman, as I see it, is this. You have to tell your prop. manager you want quotes on everything before work is done. You want to know the hourly rate for the electricians, plumbers, handymen etc they hire and no account gets paid from rent and is sent to you personally.If the rates don't suit, then you have to take control and find people who will do the job at the rate you want to pay. That may mean hunting them down next time you are in the locale of your property. It can be done, but takes a bit of effort. Get references from others and the people here on this forum may be able to help.
You might want to calm down a bit though – but I feel your anger.
I've had the same problems. $66 to change a tap washer, $132 to educate a tenant on the evaporative cooling system, $110 per hour for an electrican AND his apprentice to check a meter board. This sparky is charging out his apprentice to the tune of $30 per hour and I'm sure getting gov't assistance. Since when does a first year apprentice earn $55k per year? (or do they). My last beef was paying a handyman $66 per hour. Thats over $100k per year for a handyman and the property manager thought this was ok.
Anyway, I now have found tradesmen that do the job for the right costs and this is at properties hundreds of kms from where I live. They are out there and a good handyman can do everything bar the elect and plumbing for $30per hr. including changing a light bulb.
Hope it works out for you.
Ian
http://theblockblog.com
Free Property Investor Information. Tools & Resources for Property Investors with a Sense of Humour.An apprentice is charged out at $30 and you think they get $55k per year. What about the other things that need to be paid to these apprentices like super, sick pay, work cover, tool allowance, redundancy… Need I go on to open your eyes to the real world??? We are not living in a third world country where a hundyman who charges $30 per hour can support his family. <moderator: edit>
I'm with you on that one, Rich Sparky, I'll add some…….. holiday pay, RDO's and trade school, one week every four weeks where the apprentice gets a full weeks wage including allowances and he/she's not earning you a cent
How about the stuff ups, expected from a learner of course, but can be very costly….. a slow drip under a basin that goes unnoticed because the owner hasn't moved in yet and it swells up the chipboard on a $1500 dollar cabinet that you need to replace……
How about the tools left behind…….
Little things really add up in the real world….Here Here to Rich Sparky and diclem. Their words are so true!
Cheers
Wife and bookkeeper to a self employed (hardworking, smart, qualified and responsible) electricianThere's more than meets the eye when running a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor) business, providing great service and making a living.
Gday Sparky
If you disagree to the point of the post, fair enough that's your right. Hundymen are not worth $66 per hour to shave doors and attach a towel rail, just the same as apprentice electricians are not worth $30 per hour standing around picking their nose and scratching their bum while the qualified sparky does the work. I dont mind paying a good tradesman for doing a good job anytime and they're worth their weight in gold, but a rip off is a rip off anyway you look at it.
As for whinging, you and Diclem should listen to yourselves. This is not a dig at electricians per say, I used it as one example of a few to point out that maintenance costs can be a problem for property owners and this relates to the original thread.
The solution was to find suitable, qualified tradies that do a good job for the price/fee you are happy with. Take action and change what was a bad situation into one that works for both parties.
If you agree that changing a light bulb is worth $130 and replacing a tap washer $60, then I'd gladly do that work at your place next time it's needed. Just call me. <moderator: edit>
Ian
http://theblockblog.com
Free Property Investing Information, Tools & Resources for Property Investorssapphire101 wrote:I've had the same problems. $66 to change a tap washer, $132 to educate a tenant on the evaporative cooling system, $110 per hour for an electrican AND his apprentice to check a meter board. This sparky is charging out his apprentice to the tune of $30 per hour and I'm sure getting gov't assistance. Since when does a first year apprentice earn $55k per year? (or do they). My last beef was paying a handyman $66 per hour. Thats over $100k per year for a handyman and the property manager thought this was ok.Anyway, I now have found tradesmen that do the job for the right costs and this is at properties hundreds of kms from where I live. They are out there and a good handyman can do everything bar the elect and plumbing for $30per hr. including changing a light bulb.
Hang on – why isnt a handyman worth $66 an hour? Tradesmen dont get paid for every hour they work. That one hour job cost the handyman:
time on the telephone
time to figure out what needs fixing/applying
time to fetch materials
time to unpack, repack etc
time to give you an invoice/get some money off youso that dinky one hour job actually cost the tradesman 2 hours
then factor in that they dont have one job lined up after another after another, since youre not booked 100% of the time or you were unsure about how long one job was going to take and so had to leave some injury time just to make sure you finish. And surely there should be a surcharge based on the uncertainty of future work. How are these people supposed to survive the quiet patches when work is thin?
In reality a handyman is on the tools for 4-5 hours in the day. when you factor in expenses like vehicle depreciation, vehicle wearn and tear, tires, tools, fuel, telephone, paying GST, doing relatively complicated tax returns, customers occasionally not paying you and it not being worth the hassle to go and chase $60, you end up on a pretty standard $60 000/pa job
Something else you perhaps didnt consider is that, as a handyman, you dont get to drive a nice car – your car is always full of the crap that you might need that one time, scratched and dusty as hell from the abuse you give it moving materials around. Usually, your garage/house is the same – leftover crap barely worth keeping that you just have to keep around because you know that the second you throw it away, youll need it, and have to buy more.
Further, have you considered that having one handyman capable of doing multiple tasks might just be a little bit more efficient than hiring separate tradespeople? A decent handyman can hang a door, paint a wall, change a washer etc in one hit – how much would it have set you back to get a carpenter, painter and plumber in to do the same?
20 year old shop assistants and telemarketers in this country get paid upwards of $20/hr and dont go through any of that pain, hassle, uncertainty, danger, and responsibility – and you have a problem with a handyman of 20 years varied building experience averaging $30 an hour for the time he's up and about working with the rest of the downsides?
I cant believe some of the attitudes here. A group of people wanting to own multiple houses/apartments/properties so that they can retire by age 50 or whatever and have other people give a portion of their money to them as rent so that they can coast through life after all that "hard work" investing (read: lurking forums, scanning newspapers, and meeting up with a few professionals here and there to shuffle some paper) have a problem with a bloke physically on the tools making a pretty average income, living a pretty average life, in, lets face it, unspectacular conditions. <moderator: delete>
The above post is the best reply yet. My reply is tainted by a bit of anger at peoples attitudes but I will try & be level headed about it.
I own a trade business. I employ 6 tradesmen, 1 office manager. We turn over $1.3M.
We do exactly the kind of work you guys are discussing.
So when you call my business you get the following;
a live person answering the phone, (In our office that I have to pay for)
he books the job on our browser based job management package, (through the computers I have to pay for)
the tradesman gets the job emailed to him & he can view it on his net-book with wireless modem in his van.
the office guy confirms arrival times & all other admin functions with you
the tradesman quotes you on the spot with our task based pricing structure, performs the task, cleans up and checks you are happy
the invoice & certificate of electrical safety are given to you on the spot
you can pay by credit card, eft, chq or cash
we leave & add you to our fast growing list of clients (Im only advertising now for the 1st time in 18 years because I have worked it out finally and want to grow.)We make a 25% net company profit providing the level of service detailed above.
Is that too much?
Who defines what my service is worth compared to say what my accountant charges?
I have overheads as well. Do you think a van is free? Are our tools given to us? That we dont have to pay the myriad of overhead costs? My public liability alone is $3000. My mobile phone & wirless broadband costs are $1.5k a month.
The business cost list goes on & on.So are the people on here complaining about the perceived value of the service they are receiving or do they believe they are worth more than the service provider as they are further up the food chain? I cant believe the jealous, elitist, greedy, self centred attitudes displayed on this forum.
Funny, the irony is that my business has grown dramatically since we lifted our level of service & professionalism way above our competitors…..& lifted the hourly rate by 400%.
The majority of clients want service & professionalism. Cost is a 3rd priority.I’m getting out of my Eames office chair and am off to make myself a coffee on our plumbed in commercial coffee machine before I go & do a quote in my $70K ute.
OceanArchitectural, investing isn't "hard work" physically, although other people involved with rental properties can make life very stressful at times.
For most of us though, it's what we need to go without that makes investing such "hard work," particularly for the first couple of properties. One also needs to be reasonably well/self educated in real estate to be successful in it.
Most jobs are far more complicated than meet the "public" eye, a lot including all the finer detail you've included above if one works for themselves.
My work appears to others to be simple, & so I feel my time is often not respected by others. I know otherwise, however. But I'm lucky, because unlike this particular topic being discussed here, I don't need to crap all over everybody else if someone dents my ego, instead, I'm strong enough to simply feel sorry for the ignorant person & just continue on my way towards my goals.cuteyoungchic wrote:OceanArchitectural, investing isn't "hard work" physically, although other people involved with rental properties can make life very stressful at times.
For most of us though, it's what we need to go without that makes investing such "hard work," particularly for the first couple of properties. One also needs to be reasonably well/self educated in real estate to be successful in it.
Most jobs are far more complicated than meet the "public" eye, a lot including all the finer detail you've included above if one works for themselves.
My work appears to others to be simple, & so I feel my time is often not respected by others. I know otherwise, however. But I'm lucky, because unlike this particular topic being discussed here, I don't need to crap all over everybody else if someone dents my ego, instead, I'm strong enough to simply feel sorry for the ignorant person & just continue on my way towards my goals.As life goes on and the times pass people just seem to get more & more selfish.. As you said whatever it is you do isn’t easy, and you have obviously endured some hard times hence the lack of regard to what others make on jobs they do for you. Like I said in another post everyone has to make money to support they’re families etc…
And it doesn’t take a genius to work out that at let’s say $30 an hour no-one is going to be happy & work efficiently & most importantly do a good job.
Look at the sparks post before your post, he is highly efficient, has programs set up to conduct a great service & keep on track of the workers & his number 1 goal is to make money through customer satisfaction…
Now these things go hand in hand with a comfortable family life, if he doesn’t have stability in his life he cannot run the business & make the money he is making, so it’s one big circle that ties into each other..
Without making good money we can’t have stability, if we can’t have stability then there will be no good tradesman to do any work at all, then we would be left with donkeys fixing monkeys work & then everyone complaining that they can’t get a job done at all…You reallyneed to wake up, stop being selfish & look at the big picture…
cuteyoungchic wrote:OceanArchitectural, investing isn't "hard work" physically, although other people involved with rental properties can make life very stressful at times.
For most of us though, it's what we need to go without that makes investing such "hard work," particularly for the first couple of properties. One also needs to be reasonably well/self educated in real estate to be successful in it.
Most jobs are far more complicated than meet the "public" eye, a lot including all the finer detail you've included above if one works for themselves.
My work appears to others to be simple, & so I feel my time is often not respected by others. I know otherwise, however. But I'm lucky, because unlike this particular topic being discussed here, I don't need to crap all over everybody else if someone dents my ego, instead, I'm strong enough to simply feel sorry for the ignorant person & just continue on my way towards my goals.Hang on a second again – my business motto has always been to never, ever get jealous of other peoples money. If someone you hire to do a job adds value for you, they should get equivalent value back, and thats that.
Now, you said that investing isnt difficult physically – thats true. But then, a lot of handyman work isnt particularly physical either, but they take on every bit as much responsibility as an investor, albiet in smaller pieces. If youre an investor and make a mistake, sure, you can lose tens or hundreds of thousands in one hit. If youre a tradesman, all of those little losses pile up and are every bit as significant in the long term as that single major loss by an investor.
My father has been in building since forever, and I cannot count the times he took hits from such things as jobs blowing out because of something out of control – bad weather? oops, just wated 2 days and $600 in wages. Paint came off because it was a particularly hot day and ruined the external paint? oops, take it off, do it again, there goes $2000 in extra time/material/penalty fees. Apprentice crashed the van? bang, there you go, thousand dollar repair bill otherwise your premium goes up by 200%
I think that some people here are lacking in perspective. Yes investing is can be difficult, stressful, uncertain, and problematic, but the same thing applies to any person running a small business – as an investor, taking one big risk, you almost certainly end up in a better position than a tradie taking on many, mitigated, multiple risks, and so shouldnt begrudge the tradesperson on the tools who is adding value to your business (by fixing up your stuff) getting some value back out of it, equitably.
Just so you know, Ive been on tools since I was a child. The first time I finished concrete, I was 11 years old. Ive done everything through demolition, paint, tiling, masonry, render, steelwork, roofing, plastering, and cabinetry as a sole operator. These days I rezone land, design buildings, put developments together, and am into CGI specifically for off the plan developers – so I know where youre coming from, but, based on my previous experience and ability to relate to the guy who is the boots on the ground, think that your thinking is compartmentalised, unrealistic, and unfair.
Let the poor bastards make some money, they deserve it. Within reason, of course – and $66/hr is realistic. My bastard real estate agent friends drive nice cars, work in plush offices chock full of tasty things to eat/coffee machines/comfy chairs, drink wine with clients and, after the client pays for their advertising etc and they happen to find someone who was going to buy the property anyway, hit the client for $10 000 – $15 000 in fees. which, I might add, is how much a handyman could expect to make in 3 months. Its a little unfair, but then, the RE agent added value, and deserves value back. It's a better gig than being a handyman in my opinion, but as I said, added value is added value, and people should be compensated fairly in return
(Secretly I hate real estate agents. Just saying.)
OceanArchitectural wrote:cuteyoungchic wrote:OceanArchitectural, investing isn't "hard work" physically, although other people involved with rental properties can make life very stressful at times.
For most of us though, it's what we need to go without that makes investing such "hard work," particularly for the first couple of properties. One also needs to be reasonably well/self educated in real estate to be successful in it.
Most jobs are far more complicated than meet the "public" eye, a lot including all the finer detail you've included above if one works for themselves.
My work appears to others to be simple, & so I feel my time is often not respected by others. I know otherwise, however. But I'm lucky, because unlike this particular topic being discussed here, I don't need to crap all over everybody else if someone dents my ego, instead, I'm strong enough to simply feel sorry for the ignorant person & just continue on my way towards my goals.Hang on a second again – my business motto has always been to never, ever get jealous of other peoples money. If someone you hire to do a job adds value for you, they should get equivalent value back, and thats that.
Now, you said that investing isnt difficult physically – thats true. But then, a lot of handyman work isnt particularly physical either, but they take on every bit as much responsibility as an investor, albiet in smaller pieces. If youre an investor and make a mistake, sure, you can lose tens or hundreds of thousands in one hit. If youre a tradesman, all of those little losses pile up and are every bit as significant in the long term as that single major loss by an investor.
My father has been in building since forever, and I cannot count the times he took hits from such things as jobs blowing out because of something out of control – bad weather? oops, just wated 2 days and $600 in wages. Paint came off because it was a particularly hot day and ruined the external paint? oops, take it off, do it again, there goes $2000 in extra time/material/penalty fees. Apprentice crashed the van? bang, there you go, thousand dollar repair bill otherwise your premium goes up by 200%
I think that some people here are lacking in perspective. Yes investing is can be difficult, stressful, uncertain, and problematic, but the same thing applies to any person running a small business – as an investor, taking one big risk, you almost certainly end up in a better position than a tradie taking on many, mitigated, multiple risks, and so shouldnt begrudge the tradesperson on the tools who is adding value to your business (by fixing up your stuff) getting some value back out of it, equitably.
Just so you know, Ive been on tools since I was a child. The first time I finished concrete, I was 11 years old. Ive done everything through demolition, paint, tiling, masonry, render, steelwork, roofing, plastering, and cabinetry as a sole operator. These days I rezone land, design buildings, put developments together, and am into CGI specifically for off the plan developers – so I know where youre coming from, but, based on my previous experience and ability to relate to the guy who is the boots on the ground, think that your thinking is compartmentalised, unrealistic, and unfair.
Let the poor bastards make some money, they deserve it. Within reason, of course – and $66/hr is realistic. My bastard real estate agent friends drive nice cars, work in plush offices chock full of tasty things to eat/coffee machines/comfy chairs, drink wine with clients and, after the client pays for their advertising etc and they happen to find someone who was going to buy the property anyway, hit the client for $10 000 – $15 000 in fees. which, I might add, is how much a handyman could expect to make in 3 months. Its a little unfair, but then, the RE agent added value, and deserves value back. It's a better gig than being a handyman in my opinion, but as I said, added value is added value, and people should be compensated fairly in return
(Secretly I hate real estate agents. Just saying.)
OceanArchitectural, I wasn't for one second comparing real estate investors with tradesmen
Cheerscuteyoungchic wrote:OceanArchitectural wrote:cuteyoungchic wrote:OceanArchitectural, investing isn't "hard work" physically, although other people involved with rental properties can make life very stressful at times.
For most of us though, it's what we need to go without that makes investing such "hard work," particularly for the first couple of properties. One also needs to be reasonably well/self educated in real estate to be successful in it.
Most jobs are far more complicated than meet the "public" eye, a lot including all the finer detail you've included above if one works for themselves.
My work appears to others to be simple, & so I feel my time is often not respected by others. I know otherwise, however. But I'm lucky, because unlike this particular topic being discussed here, I don't need to crap all over everybody else if someone dents my ego, instead, I'm strong enough to simply feel sorry for the ignorant person & just continue on my way towards my goals.Hang on a second again – my business motto has always been to never, ever get jealous of other peoples money. If someone you hire to do a job adds value for you, they should get equivalent value back, and thats that.
Now, you said that investing isnt difficult physically – thats true. But then, a lot of handyman work isnt particularly physical either, but they take on every bit as much responsibility as an investor, albiet in smaller pieces. If youre an investor and make a mistake, sure, you can lose tens or hundreds of thousands in one hit. If youre a tradesman, all of those little losses pile up and are every bit as significant in the long term as that single major loss by an investor.
My father has been in building since forever, and I cannot count the times he took hits from such things as jobs blowing out because of something out of control – bad weather? oops, just wated 2 days and $600 in wages. Paint came off because it was a particularly hot day and ruined the external paint? oops, take it off, do it again, there goes $2000 in extra time/material/penalty fees. Apprentice crashed the van? bang, there you go, thousand dollar repair bill otherwise your premium goes up by 200%
I think that some people here are lacking in perspective. Yes investing is can be difficult, stressful, uncertain, and problematic, but the same thing applies to any person running a small business – as an investor, taking one big risk, you almost certainly end up in a better position than a tradie taking on many, mitigated, multiple risks, and so shouldnt begrudge the tradesperson on the tools who is adding value to your business (by fixing up your stuff) getting some value back out of it, equitably.
Just so you know, Ive been on tools since I was a child. The first time I finished concrete, I was 11 years old. Ive done everything through demolition, paint, tiling, masonry, render, steelwork, roofing, plastering, and cabinetry as a sole operator. These days I rezone land, design buildings, put developments together, and am into CGI specifically for off the plan developers – so I know where youre coming from, but, based on my previous experience and ability to relate to the guy who is the boots on the ground, think that your thinking is compartmentalised, unrealistic, and unfair.
Let the poor bastards make some money, they deserve it. Within reason, of course – and $66/hr is realistic. My bastard real estate agent friends drive nice cars, work in plush offices chock full of tasty things to eat/coffee machines/comfy chairs, drink wine with clients and, after the client pays for their advertising etc and they happen to find someone who was going to buy the property anyway, hit the client for $10 000 – $15 000 in fees. which, I might add, is how much a handyman could expect to make in 3 months. Its a little unfair, but then, the RE agent added value, and deserves value back. It's a better gig than being a handyman in my opinion, but as I said, added value is added value, and people should be compensated fairly in return
(Secretly I hate real estate agents. Just saying.)
OceanArchitectural, I wasn't for one second comparing real estate investors with tradesmen
Cheersyes you were, you just didnt realise that you were. your original post about a handyman not being worth $66 demonstrated that.
My overall point was to demonstrate that all business people (handymen and investors alike) take on risk and responsibility, albiet in different forms. All parties deserve fair payment for value added. For you to say that you thought that a handyman wasnt worth his $66 an hour, and yet be a property investor yourself making tens or hundreds of thousands a year when averages out over your investment life, thereby indicates that youre perfectly ok with investors being paid stupendous sums, but not okay with handymen earning a living wage.
Im not having a go at you – I appreciate that I was brought up in a building family and so know what its like on both sides of the fence (which is highly advantageous for me, because I guarantee that the price that I pay for work done is far less than what most people get charged, and tradespeople love working for me because its pain free) – I was just trying to point out that all people have the right to a fair, living wage, and that it is more useful to look at a tradesman/handymans situation wholistically, rather than look at one or two incidents where they may have been paid handsomely to do something relatively easy like changing a washer.
Believe me, if I could get work for handymen exclusively changing washers for $66 a pop all day, all night, non stop, 24/7/365, I would be sitting on a yatch right now with 5 blondes all called Svetlana, eating sushi off the naked body of a supermodel. But it isnt like that.
Hi all,
Being an Electrician (not a contractor), and a Property Investor I have taken a bit of interest in this thread.
A constant thing that seems to be bought up on this site is that property prices are way overvalue… and people tend to argue that it is all about supply and demand which I agree with.Which makes me wonder aren't these peoples services relative to supply and demand also? They can charge what they like as their services are in high demand and people are willing to pay that price if you are not. I see where you are coming from cuteyoungchic as being young and only just starting out in property investing my first IP is quite old and I have needed a number of repairs and labour done and the first quote I ever got was a bit of a wake up call but I believe it is all part of the 'property game'.
And these people who have the will and determination to start and run their own business are only trying to get ahead like the rest of us…
Nathan
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