All Topics / Legal & Accounting / To Trust or not to Trust: that is the question.

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 120 total)
  • Profile photo of Ben EllingsenBen Ellingsen
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    @ben-ellingsen
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 22

    I have been an accountant for 11 years I have never recommended any of my clients touch hybrid trusts – reasons being, they are complicated and expensive.
    My recommendation would be the establishment of a discretionary trust. Not only is it my recommendation, I established a discretionary trust for each of the investment properties I have purchased i.e. 1 investment property per trust if you employ a "buy and hold" strategy.

    Profile photo of give90give90
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    @give90
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 54

    ben;
    why do you establish a new disc trust for each property?

    Profile photo of danielleedaniellee
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    @daniellee
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 197

    Hi, Ben

    Would it not be expensive to have one property per trust only?

    I spoke with another accountant with experience in dealing with property investors, and he advised me to write everything that I wanted to use a trust for down, so that we can go through the feasibility of a DT after the new year.

    Already, I am looking forward to that meeting.

    Regards
    Daniel Lee

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Wow must admit if i adopted Bens logic i would have 45 separate Trusts.

    Thankfully my Accountant of 12 years seems think 5 DFT's is the way to go and sufficient.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of Joyce67Joyce67
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    @joyce67
    Join Date: 2008
    Post Count: 4
    daniellee wrote:
    Hi, Everyone

    This is the cost pricing I have been given by the accountant.

    Tax returns for individuals: From $150 + $100 per investment property per yr
    Tax return for Trust / company: From $1000 upwards per yr
    Set up of Family trust without / with Corporate Trustee: $2200 / $1000

    Yr 1 with a trust, the running cost for us will be from $1300 (2 individuals + the trust).
    Yr 1 without a trust, the running cost for us is from $400 (2 individuals + 1 IP).

    All interest and depreciation would be trapped in the trust, so our holding cost would jump from $40 per person per week (utilise interest & depreciation) to $90 per person per week (no interest & depreciation available).

    So, what are the strategies around this?

    1 – Find another accountant who charges a cheaper price?
    2 – Bear the 3-5 yrs of no claiming of interest deductions and depreciation per property?
    3 – Change my strategy and start looking for only positive cashflow IPs?

    I understand the benefits of a trust, but the numbers are not stacking up for our cashflow. So, either most people who use trust are already experts at investing and every property they get their hands on become positive'y geared very quickly, or most who use a trust have to deal with the medium term cashflow pain.

    Regards
    Daniel

    Hi Daniel,

    U think Individual Return Accounting fees of $150 + $100 per property is expensive?  As a barometer, Chan & Naylor charge $395-$905 for individuals with IP and other Accountants in the CBD charge around $400 each return……….how low do you want to go? 

    But my point is "if you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys"

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Thats one reason why C & N are getting less and less popular and other quality Accountants from the forum here are atracting more business.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of carlincarlin
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    @carlin
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 211

     
    Trusts have always confused me, even since I first enquired about them on this forum ages ago. Conflicting advice from forumites and accountants = our IPs to date (just 3) have been bought in single or joint names.

    One of the many things I don't get is – if you are a buy-and-hold investor who plans to sell some properties just before turning 60 and put the capital gains into a defined-benefits super fund, then withdraw that money after turning 60 and use the $$ to pay off the loans on the remaining properties, then why bother with having trusts?? All you'll have to pay is 15% tax on half your capital gain.

    Am I right, is this a good strategy – or have I missed the mark again?

    Carlin

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    carlin wrote:
     
    Trusts have always confused me, even since I first enquired about them on this forum ages ago. Conflicting advice from forumites and accountants = our IPs to date (just 3) have been bought in single or joint names.

    One of the many things I don't get is – if you are a buy-and-hold investor who plans to sell some properties just before turning 60 and put the capital gains into a defined-benefits super fund, then withdraw that money after turning 60 and use the $$ to pay off the loans on the remaining properties, then why bother with having trusts?? All you'll have to pay is 15% tax on half your capital gain.

    Am I right, is this a good strategy – or have I missed the mark again?

    Carlin

    Carlin

    Sounds like a good strategy – but why sell at all if you are just going to move the money into super (Which is a form of trust).

    What happens if the rules change? They are changing so rapidly at the moment it is impossible to keep up.

    And what about the asset protection issues?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of danielleedaniellee
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    @daniellee
    Join Date: 2006
    Post Count: 197

    Hi, Joyce

    I have no idea how much C&N would charged over the average accountant to do the returns for individuals with IPs, or tax returns for trust. Then again, I have no other reference to compare against. That is another reason why I am planning on meeting another accountant, to get a difference point of view on the feasiblity of a trust for us, and to look at the fee structure to do the returns.

    Personally, I looking forward to getting this Trust issue sorted out as soon as possible.

    Anyhow, has anyone bought IPs using their SMSF? What are the pros and cons, in terms of tax rates, CGT, interest deduction and depreciation?

    Regards
    Daniel

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    I have purchased and own a number of properties within my SMSF.

    There are numourous pros and depending ON WHAT YOU are after very little cons.

    Tax on the sale is based on 15% or if the Asset is held for more than 365 days on 10%.

    Obviously you need to have sufficient funds in the SMSF to make it worthwhile.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of Ben EllingsenBen Ellingsen
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    @ben-ellingsen
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 22
    give90 wrote:
    ben;
    why do you establish a new disc trust for each property?

    Reason 1 – asset protection – if one trust is sued all assets owned by the trust are "up for grabs"
    Reason 2 – when applying for finance, you don't have to include details of all your other properties which makes things a whole heap easier – this is a trick I learnt from a mortgage broker from Hervey Bay in QLD and another experienced property investor. It worked as recently as the week before Christmas when we purchased another investment property

    Profile photo of Ben EllingsenBen Ellingsen
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    @ben-ellingsen
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 22
    daniellee wrote:
    Hi, Ben

    Would it not be expensive to have one property per trust only?

    I spoke with another accountant with experience in dealing with property investors, and he advised me to write everything that I wanted to use a trust for down, so that we can go through the feasibility of a DT after the new year.

    Already, I am looking forward to that meeting.

    Regards
    Daniel Lee

    Costs less than $400 to establish and a similar amount to complete the annual Financial Statements and Income Tax Return. Having one property per trust also assists in bookkeeping to ensure the correct income and expenses is matched back to the correct property. As an accountant I have seem many investors purchase multiple properties in the one trust. Because there is income coming in from multiple properties and expenses going out, bookkeeping becomes a challenge – remember not all investors are good bookkeepers! The annual fee for preparing the Financial Statements and Income Tax Return then becomes a lot more than it needs to be.

    Profile photo of Ben EllingsenBen Ellingsen
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    @ben-ellingsen
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 22
    daniellee wrote:

    Hi, Joyce

    I have no idea how much C&N would charged over the average accountant to do the returns for individuals with IPs, or tax returns for trust. Then again, I have no other reference to compare against. That is another reason why I am planning on meeting another accountant, to get a difference point of view on the feasiblity of a trust for us, and to look at the fee structure to do the returns.

    Personally, I looking forward to getting this Trust issue sorted out as soon as possible.

    Anyhow, has anyone bought IPs using their SMSF? What are the pros and cons, in terms of tax rates, CGT, interest deduction and depreciation?

    Regards
    Daniel

    Purchasing in an SMSF can be somewhat restrictive from the point of you that a SMSF can't borrow – I know some of you might say that the ATO have recently amended the rules to allow borrowing through a warrant structure, but commercially it rarely stacks up – look at the interest rates charged (over 10%) and the fees to establish (between $10k and $30k) – this is because it is a limited recourse loan.
    I also know it is possible to purchase a property as tenants in common with another related entity – but the property can't be used as security.
    However, the tax benefits can be substantial. If you are able to access your super (ie reach your preservation age – normally 55) and start to draw a pension (even as little as 4% each year) the income and capital gain of the SMSF is 0%. It gets better – if you are 60 years or older, whatever you draw from your SMSF is tax free too!

    Profile photo of carlincarlin
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    @carlin
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 211

    In answer to Terry – we would sell some properties to pay off the others so that we had unencumbered properties delivering rental income in our retirement. Once retired we won't be able to afford all the mortgages.

    We already have a super fund to put that money into, so why bother setting up a trust?

    Yes, the rules to super could change again, however a reversal of the current favourable aspects of super (eg: 15% tax if you withdraw income after turning 60) would be as electorally unpopular as past attempts to end negative gearing have been.

    Re-asset protection – neither of us are in "at-risk of being sued" professions and we have solid insurance cover over all our places. Anyway, I've heard of people who sue getting to money held in trusts.

    Would love to have a SMSF for investing, but can't see us getting sufficient funds for one anytime soon with three young kids to raise.

    Plan is for 10 properties by 60, and to pay off about 5. Income from those + our defined benefits scheme should be enough to keep us going once we stop work.

    Carlin

    Profile photo of Richard TaylorRichard Taylor
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    @qlds007
    Join Date: 2003
    Post Count: 12,024

    Ben

    NAB Commercial loan goes to 70% LVR on residential property and the interest rate is 6.74% variable.
    The set up costs including the Bear Trust and new Pty Ltd Company come to around $6000 with the right Solicitor.

    I have done 7 of these deals to date and admitedly they are not straight forward I would certainly recommend it to a client looking to gear in to Super.

    Richard Taylor | Australia's leading private lender

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    Ben Ellingsen wrote:
    give90 wrote:
    ben;
    why do you establish a new disc trust for each property?

    Reason 1 – asset protection – if one trust is sued all assets owned by the trust are "up for grabs"
    Reason 2 – when applying for finance, you don't have to include details of all your other properties which makes things a whole heap easier – this is a trick I learnt from a mortgage broker from Hervey Bay in QLD and another experienced property investor. It worked as recently as the week before Christmas when we purchased another investment property

    Ben,
    You would still be required to notify the new lender of any loans guaranteed for the other trusts too. There would likely be records of these loan applications on your credit file.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    carlin wrote:

    In answer to Terry – we would sell some properties to pay off the others so that we had unencumbered properties delivering rental income in our retirement. Once retired we won't be able to afford all the mortgages.

    We already have a super fund to put that money into, so why bother setting up a trust?

    Yes, the rules to super could change again, however a reversal of the current favourable aspects of super (eg: 15% tax if you withdraw income after turning 60) would be as electorally unpopular as past attempts to end negative gearing have been.

    Re-asset protection – neither of us are in "at-risk of being sued" professions and we have solid insurance cover over all our places. Anyway, I've heard of people who sue getting to money held in trusts.

    Would love to have a SMSF for investing, but can't see us getting sufficient funds for one anytime soon with three young kids to raise.

    Plan is for 10 properties by 60, and to pay off about 5. Income from those + our defined benefits scheme should be enough to keep us going once we stop work.

    Carlin

    Hi Carlin

    Some good points, but for me I would only ever buy in a trust.

    Re low risk of being sued – you can get into trouble easily. eg. one of my clients has recently gotten into trouble because of credit cards. she is now bankrupt. This is because of stupidity, but it was unplanned (naturally) and is unable to be planned for.

    If you wish to sell properties in the future, you may save a lot of CGT by using a trust. Along the way you may also save income tax.

    When you die you can also pass the control of the trust to your children without any stamp duty or CGT payable. This can even be done before you die if you want to bring your kids into  your investments.

    Another advantage is if  your get into some credit problems and can no longer get finance – you can just change the director of your trustee company to your brother (eg) who can then go on to get finance – and possibly access equity.

    So why not use a trust if all you are up for is a bit of accounting fees and some more land tax?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of coalstarcoalstar
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    @coalstar
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 122

    I set up a HDT a while back and be holding of buying anything under it. I was wondering though if I could change the name of the company that controls/owns the trust??
    Also, should I bother buying anything at all with it? Previous posts suggest not, Yes Im confused as my accountant also suggests not to bother with them….

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213
    alani wrote:
    I set up a HDT a while back and be holding of buying anything under it. I was wondering though if I could change the name of the company that controls/owns the trust?? Also, should I bother buying anything at all with it? Previous posts suggest not, Yes Im confused as my accountant also suggests not to bother with them….

    Yes you can change the name of the company pretty easily by filling in the ASIC forms from http://www.asic.gov.au. If your trust already owns property, then it may be a bit complex as you will have title deeds issued in the current name.

    Before you buy you should seek good tax advice. Your trust should still be able to function as a discretionary trust or you could still issue units, but it would depend on the wording of the deed. If it allows the trustee to give the income to someone other than the unit holder, it may not be a commercially viable transaction and the ATO may disallow the interest claim.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of Ben EllingsenBen Ellingsen
    Participant
    @ben-ellingsen
    Join Date: 2007
    Post Count: 22
    Qlds007 wrote:
    Ben

    NAB Commercial loan goes to 70% LVR on residential property and the interest rate is 6.74% variable.
    The set up costs including the Bear Trust and new Pty Ltd Company come to around $6000 with the right Solicitor.

    I have done 7 of these deals to date and admitedly they are not straight forward I would certainly recommend it to a client looking to gear in to Super.

    Richard
    This is interesting because I have received quotes from NAB and Westpac of double digit interest rates and establishment costs of between $10k to $30k.

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