Hi All,
I was just wanting to know if anyone can point me to a website that lists the Sales/Auctions final sale price for houses?
I know it must exist and have heard people talking about it so I thought someone here will know for sure. I was looking at
realestate.com.au and they don't have the final sale prices!
Thanks in advance
Darcy
On a related note are there any sites that have maps with average sale price mapped as a colour or shade on them for Melbourne etc?
Hey Darcy,
We use RP Data…..subscription to this allows you to access sale prices but only gets loaded onto the system a few days after the property has settled.
Alternatively if you're only after the odd property sale price then you can buy individual reports.
Link: http://www.realtor.com.au or http://www.rpdata.com.au
there are a few more services similar to this but i can't remember their names….one of them even sms's you the details.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Kim
Thanks. My hubby just brought home The Age and they have yesterdays results, I just don't want to accumulate a pile of papers. I'll look at RP data now.
Darcy
Keep in mind with AUCTION results that many include the results of a sale that happens before or after the auction date.
This is spin on the actual result; especially if quoted in newspapers.
A sale made before or after the auction is not an auction result; it is a private sale.
This may not be important, but the r/e industry and newspapers use an inflated and false stat for AUCTIONS to promote auction sales and make the market look better than it really is.
Agents love them as they invariably get a fast result (a sale) – good or bad and make a few extra dollars along the way from advertising.
So there is a vested interest in promoting auctions as a tool to sell real estate.
Look carefully at the passed-in results of auctions in relation to the total amount of auctions, and who is funding the publication of those results.Also beware of sales results that quote AVERAGE and MEDIAN PRICES. They are extremely generalised and may not reflect the true value of a particular property type in a particluar neighborhood.
For example; the MEDIAN PRICE of a suburb is the price of the property that is exactly halfway between the total number of sales.
Say there are 100 sales for a suburb, and the median is quoted in the paper as $300k. This is the price of the 50th property sale.
Then there are another 20 houses sold in that suburb for around $250k over the next 3 months. The median price will reflect a price drop in the median.For example; the AVERAGE PRICE for a house in a suburb is the price of each house when averaged out across the total amount of sales dollars for that suburb.
Say there are 100 sales, and the total dollars for those sales is $40mill. The average price of a house is $400k. But then the next 50 sales are of houses in the $700-800k price range and no-one buys a house below $400k for the period being studied. This will reflect a rise in the average price, but the real price of the lower end houses hasn't increased at all.L A Aussie says
Keep in mind with AUCTION results that many include the results of a sale that happens before or after the auction date.
This is spin on the actual result; especially if quoted in newspapers.
A sale made before or after the auction is not an auction result; it is a private sale.
This may not be important, but the r/e industry and newspapers use an inflated and false stat for AUCTIONS to promote auction sales and make the market look better than it really is.
Marc, you dissapoint me – your comments are usually more accurate than this, you must dislike Auctions because your comments are so far from the truth that it astounds me. For thos who wish to understand the Auction process it works like this.The Auction programme is a three phase marketing process that allows the Seller to present their property to the market without a price in order to let interested Bidders compete in an open and visual forum – the Purchaser is the person who is prepared to offer the highest price. This process sometimes allows for the sale to be made prior to the Auction date (and this is often noted on the advertising as 'prior offers accepted') at Auction or after Auction. The only time that a Vendor price is mentioned is after Auction because by then the Vendor should know where the buying public see the value of their property. (this does not mean that the Vendor will listen to this information) and this is the only phase that the property is classed as private treaty.
Interestingly, many 'would be Purchasers' will ring after the Auction just to advise the Agent that they would have paid more for the property had it been for sale with a price – There is one thing for sure, and that is that if you advertise a property with a price in most instances there is only one way that the price will go and that is down – hence the new trend for reverse Auctions.
hope this clears up the misunderstanding.
Jon
"The Auction programme is a three phase marketing process that allows the Seller to present their property to the market without a price in order to let interested Bidders compete in an open and visual forum – the Purchaser is the person who is prepared to offer the highest price. This process sometimes allows for the sale to be made prior to the Auction date (and this is often noted on the advertising as 'prior offers accepted') at Auction or after Auction. The only time that a Vendor price is mentioned is after Auction because by then the Vendor should know where the buying public see the value of their property. (this does not mean that the Vendor will listen to this information) and this is the only phase that the property is classed as private treaty."
Jon,
Sorry, but you sound like an agent making a pitch to a prospective Vendor.
Are you an agent? I was for a time. I still hold a current Victorian Real Estate Representative's Licence (Victoria is the home of the auction). I've also been involved in buying and selling property since 1985, have dealt with 100's of agents and am a fan of Neil Jenman and Terry Ryder. They don't like auctions either. If you haven't seen their websites or read their books I suggest you should. They are very informative for the consumers of real estate – the buyers and sellers.
Without blowing my own trumpet; I have lots of experience in this caper.You are right Jon; I don't like auctions as there are so many dodgy practices involved in their process it is totally disgusting, and in my opinion the process is bordering on, at the very least; gross negligence by the real estate industry for not cleaning up the disgrace that it is. The terms "overquoting and "underquoting" should never have to be mentioned in the auction process of selling real estate, but unfortunatley they are mentioned – very often.
"The Auction programme is a three phase marketing process"
Jon, you are also right that it is a 3 phase process;
1. "buy" the listing. (inflating the prospective sale price to the Vendor to get the sale authority).
2. "condition" the Vendor. (work on them to drop their expectations of a high sale price during the marketing campaign).
3. get the property "on the market" at the auction and make a sale at all costs. (pressure the Vendor to allow the property to sell with or without further bids).
"the Purchaser is the person who is prepared to offer the highest price."
The Purchaser is the person who is prepared to pay ONLY the price they have to pay to buy the property. You know as well as I do Jon, that this is almost always not how much they can actually pay.
The auction system quite often robs the Vendor of the best price they might get for their property, and many Vendors, who are inexperienced in real estate selling/buying don't know this.
For example; if I have $400k to spend on a property, and at the auction my nearest competition only bids $385k, do you think I will bid the full $400k to secure the property? Absolutely not Jon; I'm going to offer $385,500, or even $385,100 thus robbing the Vendor of $15k that I might have had to spend if there was genuine interest in the property and I had to offer my best price, not knowing what other buyers have offered."This process sometimes allows for the sale to be made prior to the Auction date (and this is often noted on the advertising as 'prior offers accepted') at Auction or after Auction."
So if offers are accepted prior to, or after the auction, then why have an auction that costs a lot of non-refundable dollars at all? Aren't offers to purchase normally what occur in a Private Treaty Sale? Of course they are Jon.An auction sale is where the property is put before the public who will openly place bids to hopefully buy that property. The property is sold to the highest bidder on the day, provided the highest bid has surpassed the vendor's reserve price.
If someone makes an offer before the auction and the Vendor accepts it, then this is a PRIVATE TREATY SALE. No AUCTION took place.
The same thing goes for a sale that is completed after the auction has been conducted and the property is passed in. The Vendor is then negotiating with only one buyer; this is a PRIVATE TREATY SALE.Of course Jon, the real estate industry will spin this result to show it as an auction sale. Everybody then gets the impression that auctions get results; and they do. That's why agents love them. They are virtually guaranteed a sale and a commission no matter whether the Vendor has received the best price or not. The agent's number one priority is to get a sale and the all-important commision, auction fee and advertising budget dollars that are subsidised by the printed media.
It is a well known fact that real estate agents try to steer the Vendor towards an auction because it usually results in a sale by a certain date, (or soon after if the agent has done his/her job well) and they can also generate thousands of dollars in extra income through the marketing campaign. Of course, there is also the auction fee as well.
The normal procedure in the 1st "phase" is the agent tells the Vendor they can get X dollars for the property. They usually inflate the price to "buy" the listing; the vendor gets excited over the prospect of a high price for their home. Then the agent advertises the property several thousand dollars below what the agent has promised the Vendor they will get for it. When the Vendor asks why the advertised price is low, the agent invariably responds with a line such as "this will attract a lot more buyers and create more interest". The problem is, it attracts buyers who can't afford to pay what the Vendor is expecting and the buyers don't even know they can't afford it yet. This is "open and visual"? yeah, right.
The 2nd "phase" is the "conditioning" of the Vendor. Over the next few weeks, as open for inspections are held to show prospective buyers the property (and for agents to collect names and numbers for future sales leads) the buyers make tentative or even strong offers, or show interest at the price range that was advertised and also what they can afford. When people ask what the property will sell for, the agent is usually vague and gives broad ball-park figures; quite often well below what the agent has told the Vendor they can sell it for, and what the Vendor is expecting. Of course, the agent doesn't let the Vendor know what he/she is telling the prospective buyers about price range.
The agent meets with the Vendor at various times to let them know that there is interest, but at a lower price range. The agent may say something like "this is what the market is telling us your property is worth". This hopefully plants in the the Vendor's mind the thought that the property may not sell for what they expected, and to be prepared to accept a lower price.The 3rd "phase" is on auction day. The Vendor meets with the agent, who summarises the marketing programme and shows the Vendor the level of interest and/or any offers (usually too low to be of any interest to the Vendor). The agent will also ask the vendor what the reserve is. The auction is conducted with serious (and painfully annoying) theatrics, and hopefully bids are received.
a) If there is no interest the property is passed in and the whole program reverts back to a Private Treaty Sale. The Vendor has just done a $1000 or so for the waste of time auction and more for the subsidised advertising, and will need to start again. The agent gets the auction fee and the advertising budget. Yahoo!! The Vendor still hasn't sold the property.
b) The property has bids, but not high enough to sell the property to the Vendor's expectations. The property is "passed in" to the highest bidder. The Vendor now negotiates with the highest bidder; a Private Treaty Sale occurs, the Vendor sells the property hopefully and the Vendor has wasted the cost of an auction. The agent gets a commission, auction fee and subsidised advertising budget. Double Yahoo!!
c) The property is sold at auction after it is put 'on the market". Many times the bidding will end soon after this with no further increase in price. The Vendor is obliged to sell the property now. No-one knows how much the successful buyer would have paid; probably more. The agent gets the auction fee, the commission and the subsidised advertising budget. Double Yahoo!! The Vendor may have sold it for more. We will never know."The only time that a Vendor price is mentioned is after Auction because by then the Vendor should know where the buying public see the value of their property."
The agent and the Vendor have already discussed the prospective price of the property when they sign the Sales Authority. No-one ever sells a property without a price in mind. In an auction, this is kept a secret from the buyers (and sometimes from the agent). This is not exactly an "open and visual forum" for the prospective purchasers.
In a Private Treaty Sale, everyone knows what the starting point is and the agent (if they are any good) will work hard to get a price as close to the asking price as possible. That's why they are paid very large commissions one would think.My final shot is this Jon; if Auctions were such an "open and visual forum", then why did the Govt have to introduce a law to outlaw dummy bidding, and why did the Govt introduce fines (that are not enforced) for overquoting and underquoting?
Hi Marc, Oh dear, a Jenman fan. Perhaps I should give up while I’m ahead as I know that it is useless to preach to the converted. In my opinion Neil Jenman has done more harm to the general public through his psychological use of peoples greatest weakness – Fear. Everyone believes that they are being ripped off so tell them they are – but hey! I’m different I wouldn’t do that I’m totally ethical. Yeeear right!!!
Am I an Agent? Yes I am, I began my career in 1977 so I to have a lot of experience in selling property. I don’t profess to know everything but I guarantee that I have seen just about all there is to see when it comes to Agents, Sellers and Buyers. I can quote some horror stories about Sellers and Buyers as well as Agents. But most people would just call that human nature, we all wear different hats to suit our position at the time.
But back to the point, you say:-
You are right Jon; I don't like auctions as there are so many dodgy practices involved in their process it is totally disgusting, and in my opinion the process is bordering on, at the very least; gross negligence by the real estate industry for not cleaning up the disgrace that it is. The terms "overquoting and "underquoting" should never have to be mentioned in the auction process of selling real estate, but unfortunatley they are mentioned – very often.
So let me explain how Neil Jenman handles the process. Property for sale with an over inflated price or ‘By negotiation’, Purchaser decides that they like the property so they make an offer in writing, agent takes offer to Vendor. Purchaser has to chase up Agent to find out what happened to the offer, Agent says, sorry the offer was not acceptable do you want to make another offer? Purchaser asks the obvious question, well how much will they take? Agent says I don’t know how much more do you want to offer? Frustrated Purchaser raises the offer and waits for Agent to get back to them. After a day and no contact from Agent, Purchaser calls again to find out what happened to their offer, Agent says sorry Vendor says it’s not enough do you want to offer more? Very frustrated Purchaser says he has to talk to his wife that night and will call Agent back. Next day Purchaser calls Agent to raise offer only to be told that sorry Property sold last night.
Now if you call this ethical then we are on different buses, I firmly believe that a public Auction would be better than the one that this Agent ran. And by the way, this is a recorded experience of an acquaintance of mine dealing with one of Brisbane’s top Jenman offices. Suffice to say that they will never deal with a Jenman office and I hazard a guess that none of their friends will either.
Let’s look at this example of yours:-
For example; if I have $400k to spend on a property, and at the auction my nearest competition only bids $385k, do you think I will bid the full $400k to secure the property? Absolutely not Jon; I'm going to offer $385,500, or even $385,100 thus robbing the Vendor of $15k that I might have had to spend if there was genuine interest in the property and I had to offer my best price, not knowing what other buyers have offered.
This is right out of the Jenman handbook and is exactly an indication of how he works on peoples fear of loosing money. Let be honest, everyone knows that all Sellers have an inflated value of their property and all Sellers believe that they have paid too much for it and all Agents do nothing but get paid for just being there. But lets look at your example from both sides of the scenario.
First the Auction. If after four weeks of marketing the best offer on the day is $385,000 and you raise it to $385,500 and there are no more bids then it is highly likely that this is the best price that the Vendor is going to get on the day and he has a decision to accept or decline the offer. Unless the offer is higher than the reserve set by the Vendor then you must realise that they do not have to accept the offer (and many don’t). This is the short story, there is much more to it than this simplified version.
Private treaty. Lets take the same Property, only now the Vendor decides to sell with a price. Now working on the assumption that all Vendors have an inflated value of their Property value they decide to list it at $450,000. After many weeks and lots of inspections the Vendor says to the Agent, what’s wrong with our property no one seems to like it? Why haven’t you got us an offer? Now as Jenman doesn’t advertise property the Agent only has the Internet to rely on to find a Purchaser but fortunately a young couple have just looked at the property and have shown more than passing interest in it but seem reluctant to go further. The Agent knowing that his listing is on the line asks why they won’t put an offer on the Property. The Purchasers say ‘Look we really like it but we’ve been around looking for several weeks now and we’ve missed out on a couple, you know the one in Smith St was very similar to this one but it only sold for $370,000 and the one in Brown St sold for $400,000 and it was better than this one, we think that this one is way over at $450,000. We would however be prepared to pay $380,000. At this point in the process the Seller has a decision to make. How far does he risk pushing the Purchaser before loosing him or does he accept the $380,000.
In both scenarios the Seller has the final say. The most important factor that should me mentioned is the Buyer feedback and recent sales data that should have been supplied to the Seller along the course of the marketing programme in order for them to make an educated decision as to the market perception of their Property. As to weather or not you would have spent the $400,000 is just a scare tactic because of course you wouldn’t (unless you are stupid) or unless you thought that the Property was worth it in which case it was (to you).
As to your statement:-
So if offers are accepted prior to, or after the auction, then why have an auction that costs a lot of non-refundable dollars at all? Aren't offers to purchase normally what occur in a Private Treaty Sale? Of course they are Jon.
Before I attempt to answer the advertising debate let me first answer the ‘Prior Sale’ issue. If the Property is being sold under Auction conditions then it is Illegal to discuss any price whatsoever with a prospective Purchaser so any offer given must be made solely by the Purchaser. This offer would have to be high in order for any worthy agent to advise the Seller to consider it and would perhaps be best used when the market is slow. As there is no price mentioned by the Seller or their Agent then this is still deemed to be under Auction conditions. I think that you are just a bit hung up by the word Auction the aim is to sell the Property at the best price in the shortest time.
Advertising. I fully realise that the Jenman system does not advocate spending money on advertising. Well all I can say is the cheque is in the mail. There is an oft quoted saying in all sales circles which goes:- ‘You can’t sell a secret’ If a Seller does not expose their Property to as wide an audience as they can, then in my opinion they are destined for less competition which usually results in a lower price. As to your so called Non-Refundable dollars (obvious Jenman speak), I’m not sure about Victorian law but in Queensland it is illegal to charge a Seller more for advertising than it actually costs the agency. If the Property were sold prior to the Auction date then the only amount charged is that amount actually expended. Coupled with this statement it should also be noted that the only difference in cost between the Auction process and Private Treaty is the Auctioneers fee.
Your comment:-
It is a well known fact that real estate agents try to steer the Vendor towards an auction because it usually results in a sale by a certain date, (or soon after if the agent has done his/her job well) and they can also generate thousands of dollars in extra income through the marketing campaign. Of course, there is also the auction fee as well.
Another Jenman scare tactic. Agents simply don’t make anything out of advertising (It is Illegal). I will be honest and add here that it does improve the Agent and office profile but lets face it that is one of the reasons that you hired us to do the job isn’t it? Do you buy a brand new car and drive it home and remove all of the makers badges (Advertising) after all you paid for the car why should you give them free advertising?
And lastly:-
My final shot is this Jon; if Auctions were such an "open and visual forum", then why did the Govt have to introduce a law to outlaw dummy bidding, and why did the Govt introduce fines (that are not enforced) for overquoting and underquoting?
I’m not saying that the methods are fool proof, however in all my years of experience, I have noted that legislation is continually changing in order to make things better, however as in all situations where large amounts of money are concerned there will always be a scumbag trying to find an angle.
Jon
I said: "For example; if I have $400k to spend on a property, and at the auction my nearest competition only bids $385k, do you think I will bid the full $400k to secure the property? Absolutely not Jon; I'm going to offer $385,500, or even $385,100 thus robbing the Vendor of $15k that I might have had to spend if there was genuine interest in the property and I had to offer my best price, not knowing what other buyers have offered".
Jon said: "This is right out of the Jenman handbook and is exactly an indication of how he works on peoples fear of loosing money. Let be honest, everyone knows that all Sellers have an inflated value of their property and all Sellers believe that they have paid too much for it and all Agents do nothing but get paid for just being there. But lets look at your example from both sides of the scenario".
Whether the above scenario is straight out of the Jenman handbook as you say, the above scenario of only bidding just enough to buy the property is one that I have witnessed many times myself. Neil didn't invent the scenario; he just reports on it. He has exposed the practices in public and agents don't like him for that.
Don't forget Jon that I am also a TERRY RYDER fan as well. He is a highly respected lawyer, specialising in property related issues. He has similar views as Neil and his website http://www.hotspotting.com.au is a great site for educating comsumers and investors alike.
Both of these men are successful in their own right before they ever started to go public with their views and findings. They don't need the extra money.On the subject of the Vendor's inflated view of their properties' value, if the agent knows this, then why doesn't he/she say to the Vendor; "no, your house is not worth $500k; it is only worth about $450k and you are asking too much".
The agent chooses to say nothing because he/she knows they would not get the listing; no listings = no sales = no commission = no food on the table, so they go along with it and work on the Vendor, or hope for the best. The Vendor meanwhile, is waisting everyone's time either knowingly or unknowingly, and the agent facilitates this waste of time knowingly.
I once bought a house 8 months after it came on the market; having to wait until the price came down to somewhere near what it was really worth. Throughout the 8 months there were 3 different agents handling the sale (a Private Treaty sale). Did the agents try to tell the Vendor his price was way too high and he should drop the price? maybe. But with each agent the starting advertised price was the same as the with the last agent.
What we need is for a qualified valuer to tell the Vendor what the property is (officially) worth based on the valuer's expertise, then the Vendor makes up their own mind what they want to sell the property for. If it is priced correctly, it will sell in a few days to a week, if it isn't priced correctly, it will sit there until the Vendor comes to his/her senses and lowers the price.On the subject of Neil Jenman using fear; he alerts people to the games and practices in the industry; just like I did in my post. This makes people educated, more informed and less likely to waste valuable time and money during the process of buying and/or selling. Many people spend many dollars and hours on building inspections etc, not knowing that they haven't got a hope in hell of every being able to afford the property they are hoping to buy. At least if there is a price tag on the property to begin with, they can then decide whether they can afford it or not, or make an attempt to haggle the price down to one they can afford. The haggling process, which pisses everyone off, is part of the deal, and the agent is paid handsomely to ferry the information back and forth. That's what they get paid for, and Vendors know they are always going to receive an offer below what they are asking unless there is a boom frenzy going on.
Of course; we could always just haggle directly with the Vendor and cut out the agent and save several thousand dollars for the Vendor in commissions; how would that be Jon? I'd love that, but not many people are game to sell their property without an agent unfortunately.
Even though I was talking to you Jon, I was actually trying through my post to alert many of the newbies on this forum to these situations and maybe they can avoid them; not fill them with fear. When I first started in property I had little education, so I was filled with fear. Now I have the education and the fear is gone.
Legislation is always changing to hopefully make things better in the auction process; but again, it is proof of the argument that there has to be legislation brought in in the first place to protect the consumer from what is largely a process rife with highly unethical tactics that cost consumers lots of money. And even though the legislation has/is changing; the auction process (at least in Victoria) is ostensibly unchanged and very little intervention by authorities ever happens to punish the bad guys. I am yet to see an agent get put out of business for underquoting an auction in Victoria.
I think there were a couple of agents fined in the last couple of years; it's a start.
Hey Darcy. In NSW there is a wealth of FREE info including sell prices, and all past sales history that covers the Illawara Sth Coast area at http://www.allhomes.com.au If only there was a site like this for other areas in Oz. If anyone else knows of one similar, let us all know. I will resist the overwhelming urge to comment on 'Jenman agents', suffice to say many of them are quite unethical also, although NeiliboyJ does have some good ideas – as do others. Not sure why his agents are leaving in droves though – either they want to do more unethical things without Neil watching, or the exhorbant annual fees to be affiliated are crippling them.? . Anyway, that has nothing to do with what you asked eh? See what you think of that website anyway. All the best.
To be honest, I think Jenman is a bit strange – in the Michael Jackson sense. Especially after seeing his odd fascination with some dead Australian author I've never even heard of, on the ABC a few days ago. But to give a voice to the general public on this…
Most people (both buyers and sellers) HATE auctions – and RE agents rate similar to car salesmen, telemarketers and Jehovah's Witnesses, on the opinion scale.
What people want is a set price – even if it is too high. Then there can be some negotiation and someone will end up buying a house. Oh sure, people will still go to auctions – but we hate doing it. Most of us there are thinking, "For goodness sake – why all this foolishness!? Just tell the vendor to set a vaguely reasonable price and SOMEONE will buy!"
It saves everyone's time, frustration, and means we don't have to deal with "those R/E creatures" any longer than absolutely necessary. (No matter how much RE agents bill and coo at us – we all have this image in our minds they are vultures with knife and fork waiting to dine on us.)
While I think Jenman is a bit odd… He (generally) only confirms what we the public suspected all along.
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