All Topics / Opinionated! / New Industrial Relations Laws

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  • Profile photo of Brisbane 04Brisbane 04
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    @brisbane-04
    Join Date: 2004
    Post Count: 215

    Hi all,
    I dont know if this is applicable to this forum but being a shift worker the new laws are going to have a pretty big effect on my salary when it comes to re-negotiating my conditions. Is anybody going to be better off? Will it have an impact on your current property strategy? Has little Johnny committed political suicide?Martin

    There are 3 types of people:1. People who make things happen.
    2. People who watch what happens.
    3. People who wondered what happened.

    Profile photo of RikkyRikky
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    @rikky
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    I hope you were at the rally I was I came from the airport directly to the rally after a 30 hour flight

    Monopoly, my favourite game

    Profile photo of Nigel KibelNigel Kibel
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    @nigel-kibel
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    I have been a strong supporter of the Howard government. I agree with getting rid of unfair dismissal for small business. This legislation goes far further. They have made a mistake that will probably cost them the next election. The main problem is that on paper it is hard to see how anyone apart from the employers will be better off. People vote on issues that effecty them personally. The government should not forget that when they introduced the GST they nearly lost government and a large number of seats. The has the potential of being a far bigger problem for the government.

    Nigel Kibel

    http://www.propertyknowhow.com.au

    Australian and New Zealand The United States Property Researcher and education
    One Day property investment research workshop just $290 Melb 26 November Buying in the United States and New Zealand

    Nigel Kibel | Property Know How
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    We have just launched a new website join our membership today

    Profile photo of Brisbane 04Brisbane 04
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    @brisbane-04
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    Post Count: 215

    Hi Rikky,
    Yes I was at the rally held in Bendigo. I agree with Nigel about what happened re the GST.This time the Govt is targeting our award and conditions and in most instances it is going to have a negative effect. I also was a supporter of John Howard now no more. He has targeted the worker what was he thinking?Martin

    There are 3 types of people:1. People who make things happen.
    2. People who watch what happens.
    3. People who wondered what happened.

    Profile photo of munjymunjy
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    @munjy
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    As an employer, I too do not think I personally will be better off.

    I run a very small business with 1 full time, 2 part time and 1 casual employees. If other employers decrease their employees pay, and in turn can offer discounts on prices (whether or not they increase profits is another thing), I would be unwilling to do so. This will hurt my business. Eventually, if things go as badly as the media is making out, I too will have to reduce employees conditions/pay/etc in order to stay competitive.

    I would like to think that all employers are human and will resist the temptation to make an extra buck off another human being by paying them minimal wages, but time will tell…

    Munjy

    Profile photo of DazzlingDazzling
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    @dazzling
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    I would like to think that all employers are human

    Munjy, I think you’ll find most employers are not human. Their surname is usually Ltd or Pty Ltd and hence “feelings” and all of the emotive stuff trying to be introduced to bring it back down to a human level, is very very difficult to fit inside the Financial Director’s excel spreadsheet where s/he types in the formula into the cell.

    I don’t work in Australia…so perhaps my opinion doesn’t count…but I do vote…but I don’t live in a marginal seat…so perhaps my vote doesn’t count either [blink]

    Profile photo of foundationfoundation
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    @foundation
    Join Date: 2005
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    I’ve tried to read all I can of the IR changes, short of going straight to the source (the 1200 pages of legislation & explanatory notes!!!_[blink]), and can’t see that it will have a broad scale, dramatic, negative impact on existing employee conditions and pay. I think that future employees will be unable to expect many of the conditions we take for granted today, but considering the high proportion of young people entering the workforce on fixed or casual terms, I don’t think there will be any sudden change there either.
    I do believe that over time, this legislation will contribute to a slow erosion in the standard of living for the ‘average employee’ as well as the ‘crap employee’, but high-value employees will always be in high demand, and well compensated.
    From an economic perspective, I think the mantra of “more flexibility means more productivity equals higher real pay” is silly and illogical, but flexibility will lessen the impact of downturns. Recession (which is an inevitable part of the business cycle) will be shorter, recovery will be quicker (due to a general easing in hiring/firing issues).
    On the whole, I mildly support the changes, but would like to see them (and expect I will) as just one piece of economic reform. The next area that needs attention is welfare, beginning with limits on the time someone receives support. The longer a worker works and the more tax they pay, the longer they receive unemployment benefits… bit I digress… Oh, and tax reform is important also…
    I am concerned about security of employment (the worker’s SAF if you like). I am 29 years of age, and surrounded by people my age who do not feel secure in their jobs. This is, in my opinion, contributing massively to the destruction of traditional family life. We have a very low and declining rate of childbirth in this country, and a pop-quiz of my friends revealed that very few of them expect to be doing the same job in 5 years as they are today (well, tomorrow for most of them). How can they be expected to ever settle down, and get to the real business of life – making babies – when they cannot even plan 5 years ahead? (The $6k baby bonus might seem like a lot of money to someone on welfare or low pay, but it’s peanuts to those earning 50 or 60 grand).
    Keep in mind, this is today. This is before this new legislation is in place. The changes will have no immediate effect on ANY of them, yet we have a major problem.
    I would like to see every single employee in this land, whether part time, fixed term, casual or permanent, have access to compulsory redundancy provisions (x weeks payment for x years service as a minimum). But that is not going to happen, not under the existing system, and not under the new system.
    Anyhoo, sorry for the lecture. Thanks for listening.
    F. [cowboy2]
    (Who has access to redundancy provisions and is 30% likely to need them this financial year!)

    Profile photo of stargazerstargazer
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    @stargazer
    Join Date: 2002
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    Hi all

    The IR changes not reforms are going to have a major impact on employees that have a low hourly basic rate and rely on penalties and allowances to get them to a reasonable wage.

    I feel this is going to cost the Liberal Government the next election. Labor was hard pressed but now they have a great chance.

    The way in which the IR legislation was introduced has to be questioned. If this legislation is so innocent why remove the
    No Disadvantage clauses
    Unfair dismal clauses (Initally for 20 or less in workplace now 100 or less)

    And a myriad of punitive clauses against Unions Union officials and individual workers just for suggesting certain conditions when negotiating.

    Great timing Johnny people have made decisions based on there income with penalty rates/overtime/allowances etc Now some families are going to lose significant income and possibly lose there homes.

    This does not encourage a family unit as parents in this situation have to work longer hours and both work etc just to make ends meet if they are lucky.

    Shame Johnny Shame

    Cheers
    SG

    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways Beer in one hand – Pizza in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming WOO HOO!”

    Profile photo of foundationfoundation
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    @foundation
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    Without wanting to get into another heated political debate, I’d just like to point out that the notion that IR changes will “cost the Liberal Government the next election” is dependant on voters having a viable alternative at the time – ie a leader. Kim B will never ever lead this country, and don’t get me started on Ms Gillard. Kevin Rudd is their only hope. Anyway…
    The impact of the changes will not be dramatic. It will be a slow erosion of (a few) worker’s entitlements over many successive agreements. Most workers will not have been affected at all by the time the election arrives. Remember how GST was supposed to bring the sky falling in and cost the Liberal leadership? It didn’t. People are spending indiscriminately like there’s no tomorrow, paying GST without a second thought.
    But yes, I agree that the unions will be damaged by the changes. Although the steady decline in membership (especially in younger workers) had probably already signalled their future, and had been ignored by the union sloth. This will simply hasten the process.
    Cheers, F.[cowboy2]

    Profile photo of JKMJKM
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    @jkm
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    Hi Everyone,

    I am self employed & so lucky enough to not worry about the outcome of all this. However, I do try to keep up to date & like Foundation have tried to read all that I can obtain on the topic. I frequently debate the idea with family members which ends up heated & getting us nowhere.

    I suppose the question I have is, everyone is saying how it is going to effect the unions but what has the union done for you lately & are the worth it???

    Don’t forget I am not in one so I am unaware of all the benefits but I have spoken to people that work on building sites who have had jobs shut down thanks to the union. Are they working for or against??? Could this be alot of hype on there part to get members???

    Courage is not acting without fear but acting despite your fear.

    Profile photo of RikkyRikky
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    @rikky
    Join Date: 2005
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    JKM

    What has the union done for you or me latly, gee I wonder ever heard of a 40 hour week or annual leave or sick leave or long service or public holidays or penalty rates.People standards of living reley on what the unions do if a carpenter was woking on a site for lets say $25 an hour (due to the union bargining) and then you needed a labourer to work on the same job for $20 an hour , if another company (non union) wanted to hire these people they would have to pay roughly the same rates to attract these people.
    So therefore there is a ripple effect through ever job weather you think it or not and it all stems back from what unions are doing. Get rid of unions and watch over the next 2 decades the gap between wealthy and poor and no middle class , what a world to bring children up in.
    Do you think this was just given to us .
    If you work as a contractor you rates are based on that too because if it costs so much an hour to hire a ful time employee then as a contractor those rates are factored into how much you can charge.
    Sure the union have made sum mistakes and thing have not always gone the right way.
    But just look on the news, new ceo sacks 2000 workers and get 200% pay rise this year along with his million dollars bonus, while the unions asked for a 3% pay rise just to keep up with inflation.Those bad unions always asking for everthing, give me a break , most of us just want a decent living. A good job and good conditions.

    Monopoly, my favourite game

    Profile photo of Nigel KibelNigel Kibel
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    @nigel-kibel
    Join Date: 2005
    Post Count: 1,425

    One thing to keep inm mind is that employment like anything else is a product. Accoeding to government figures the number of people aged 65 and over will nearly double bt 2020 and yet we will only have 5% of people entering the workforce compared to today. That would mean that employees were in demand. Hence market forces will determine wages and employment demand.

    Nigel Kibel

    http://www.propertyknowhow.com.au

    Australian and New Zealand The United States Property Researcher and education
    One Day property investment research workshop just $290 Melb 26 November Buying in the United States and New Zealand

    Nigel Kibel | Property Know How
    http://propertyknowhow.com.au
    Email Me | Phone Me

    We have just launched a new website join our membership today

    Profile photo of stargazerstargazer
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    @stargazer
    Join Date: 2002
    Post Count: 344

    Hi all

    There is an old saying “Governments aren’t won they are lost”

    John Howard and the Liberal Government will have created so much pain for enough working people that the deceitful advertising will be remembered as a big con. This will be enough for Labor to attain government.

    If you are in Business, no they will not be dramatic. Why is it that employer and business groups are the only ones smiling at these new IR Laws.

    GST did not take away your income. For penalty and weekend rates workers there wages could be cut by 2-300 a week.

    Unions are made up of workers they represent workers. You weaken the workers by taking away there rights and protection and the unions don’t become relevant. Just for a worker suggesting to have union representation whilst negotiating an AWA could be liable for a $33000 fine as well as other reasons:

    It will be illegal to ask for workers to be protected against unfair dismissal when negotiating an agreement – and there’s a $33,000 fine just for asking.
    And there will be a $33,000 fine for asking for union involvement in a disputes settlement procedure.
    A $33,000 fine for asking for the right for people to attend union education courses.
    A $33,000 fine for asking to protect jobs against contracting out.
    A $33,000 fine for asking for a commitment to collectively bargain.
    And a $33,000 fine for asking for anything else the Government might like to ban.

    These laws have gone too far. Some adjustments would’ve been accepted.

    Martin yes i think you will feel it mate. Start budgetting for flat rates. Just to be safe.

    I really hope im wrong with what i think will be the fall out for shift workers etc but i reckon i won’t be far off.

    Cheers
    SG

    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways Beer in one hand – Pizza in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming WOO HOO!”

    Profile photo of foundationfoundation
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    @foundation
    Join Date: 2005
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    It’s important when quoting text to reference it, eg http://www.crikey.com.au.
    And NO, there is no penalty for asking for union representation. During the bargaining process, an employee can be assisted and represented by a person of their choice. That’s how I read it anyway.
    F.[cowboy2]

    Profile photo of coastymikecoastymike
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    @coastymike
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    Post Count: 125

    I haven’t read through all the proposed industrial relations legislation but have never worked in a unionised environment and for the past 5 years have worked public holidays, very rarely taken annual leave, never availed myself of sick leave or enjoyed any of the benefits of an employed individual. Why. Because i am a business owner and was only employed as a salary and wage earner in my early years of employment. Even in those employment years I worked 2 jobs (one full time, one part time and did university part time). Seven days a week studying and working.

    I was bought up in a family (parents are both Scottish) that instilled in me the desire to work extremely hard, gain a decent education and build up an asset base. The end result. Financial independence. Was it hard. Yes. Was it worth the effort. You bet. Did unionism and all the employee benefits of today result in making my wealth. Not in any way shape or form. In fact my first job was negotiated with the business owner by myself to wash their windows at age 13 for $1. No unions, no minimum award. Just a decision to accept some money for washing windows. Did it every Saturday for 2 years and put my money into shares.

    My neighbours tell me a similar story. Came from Sri Lanka with nothing but their clothes. First job for him was as an accounts payable clerk and his wife worked as a secretary. Once they finished at 5PM they went to their second job cleaning commercial buildings in Sydney. First home purchased in Mt Druitt and with 2 children they slowly built up their asset base. Apparently they only stopped the cleaning job when they were 45. At this stage he was a Financial Director and still doing cleaning work at nights. Every holiday they had was spent working in some form. Doing extra jobs for people or increasing their cleaning hours. The end result. A multi million dollar portfolio and they are now retired at 57 and 58 respectively. To me it seems a simple formula. Work hard, sometimes more than one job, be spendthrift early on and invest in a wide range of asset classes.

    One of the effect of benefits is that society has become soo reliant on handouts, wanting heaps of leave in all forms and still expecting to be paid handsomely. We need to face the fact that it is a global economy and labour can be sourced overseas for some occupations much more cheaply. It amazes me that people complain about the proposed industrial relations reforms and yet continue to purchase products made in China (check the back of most of your shirts and im sure about 80% read “Made in China”). If you really want to support Australia’s labour base then put your money where your mouth is.

    Profile photo of RikkyRikky
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    @rikky
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    coastymike

    I agree that people have to work hard i have done the same myself and i personally don’t need a union because I think I can get a desent package from an employer anyway.
    However there are a lot of very hard working people who have not got the gift of the gab and therefore would never be able to get themselfs a decent deal from there emplyer.
    A good example is one of my best friends , he is the hardest most honest worker I know , I often pay him to work on my investment propertys on weekend he works like 2men all day long and thinks that he is ripping me of when I pay him. I should pay him twice as much but he will not take it.
    However he has worked for the same employer for 15 years and has not had a pay rise in about 10 years he is to scared to say anything because he thinks that the boss might tell him were to go and then he won’t have a job.
    Because of his low self convidence his boss take advantage of him.
    There are so many storys like this and it stinks.
    Companys prey on week people .

    This is one of the main reasons I belive in the union .

    Monopoly, my favourite game

    Profile photo of coastymikecoastymike
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    @coastymike
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    Rikky,

    That’s a good point. It’s easy to look at yourself and forget that their are others who have low self esteem, weak characters, etc and are unable to bargain for themselves. In that respect unions do have a role for the weaker person.

    Profile photo of PhoenixrisingPhoenixrising
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    Is the Howard Gov getting a big backlash already.

    A bi-election on the Northern beaches of Sydney was the worst defeat for the liberals ever. The blue ribbon seat went to an independent in a landslide.

    Ok many other issues here.John Brogden’s old seat, leader of State opposition, who stood down in disgrace over inappropriate remarks at a function.

    Without personal experience of that electorate, I can comment on Sydney in general and that is we are sick of politicians who are completely out of touch with people and whats going on in there live’s

    I think that vote yesterday was a cry of defiance and get your act together Gov’s in power or go.

    Profile photo of foundationfoundation
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    @foundation
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    Originally posted by Phoenixrising:

    we are sick of politicians who are completely out of touch with people and whats going on in there live’s

    Which is the real reason the Libs got pounded – they shipped in an out-of-towner.

    Profile photo of babu88babu88
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    @babu88
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    I belonged to a professional union (you can call it a white collar union). I had not like the blue collar unions because of their militant attitude. However, having been part of the union movements I can see why the new IR laws are bad and unfair – particularly for blue collar workers. These workers have got no hope of negotiating with their employers for better terms and conditions. How can they read a contract and know that it is reasonable to them. A CEO or executive manager has a team of legal eagles to comb through their employment contract – and this legal expense is probably paid for by the company. This is why we see a CEO not performing can walk away with a large package unashamedly. Who is going to read the employment contract for the low paid workers? I do feel for these workers with a less (or no) bargaing power. They have no voice, except through some kind of collective bargaining such as the unions. The employment contract which the employer offers these workers will just contain the basic bare bones. With the unions the terms and conditions are transparent. Companies have made it a big deal about keeping the contracts “confidential” (secret!). Just look at the secret contracts signed by big companies to the CEO and top management! – virtually to the detrimental costs to shareholders. Only if the terms and conditions therein were avail to the low paid workers. I hope for a change of government at the next election.

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