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  • Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    It is good, but you could do it betterby using the offset. You will still save the same interest but tax consequences are better.

    eg. imagine you pay $100,000 extra off the investment. That means you have $100,000 less available for the home to live in.

    at 5%pa that is $5,000 less interest on the investment. that is $5,000 less you can claim pa.
    If you had claimed this $5,000 you could save $1000 in tax – eg at 20%.
     
    This is each year and may be even more if you pay a higher rate of tax.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    j900 wrote:
    5.3% is about average for an apartments in Sydney no?

    Consider Japanese rental market – I was told it's virtually non-existent as nobody rent in Japan!

    Regardless I think Chatswood and Artarmomn are good growth areas. Too many asians wanna live in Chatswood and it is a sub-economy in it's own. (same goes to Hurstville)

    Plenty of people rent in japan – but I agree it is a totally different market over there. The attitudes are very different. Properties haven't increased in value for more than 20 years. When you buy a property it actually goes down in value – so not much incentive to invest in property,

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    ST G is one of the few lenders that will still do 95% loans for existing customers – must have an account with them at least 6 months – so don't close it yet. Keep your options open – but I agree about their offset accounts.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    I have know of one No Doc lender at 75% LVR – but rates are high 9 to 11% pa. Hope there is now another lender out there.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    First thing to do would be to change that loan to interest only and keep spare money in an offset account. By paying down the loan you are creating adverse tax consequences for yourself.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    j900 wrote:
    You cannot attain great wealth and be a free man if you refuse to take risk.

    Unless of course you win lotto.

    Good luck.

    p.s. ~7% is more like the NORMAL rate. Current ~5% is an emergency rate.

    Even lotto is a risk – dn't get your money back if you don't win!

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Whether the "rent" is income or not will depend on if the boarders are paying for rent of the room – or just contributing to household expenses. see para 17 of TR 2167.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    If your husband is working for a company as PAYG then there is not much you can do to reduce tax – one way is salary sacrifice into super.

    I wouldn't worry too much about the tax, just set yourselves up properly for investments and maximise the returns. eg. you could set up a discretionary trust and have all the income diverted to yourself – if you are on the lower income!

    You also need to consider asset protection. People on high salaries are often on so much because of the risk involved – he may be a director for example. So you need to consider this too. What happens if he is sued>?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    WannaBeInvestor wrote:
    Hi Terry,

    I am also in  a similar situation.
    I have PPOR worth about $350K and I owe $150K.
    I have an offset account but I have transferred much of the amount in offset account to home loan account (I&P), about $100K.
    There is almost $120K  redrawable amount.
    So, If I want to buy an IP and after 2 years make it PPOR  and make current PPOR an IP,how should I structure?

    I am trying to explian what I understand as below. Hope it makes sense.

    Should I redraw all redrawable amount from current home loan account ( account B) to offset account (account A), make the current home loan IO (ac B) and then buy IP with 20% deposit with a new 80% IO investment loan(ac D) with an offset account(ac C). I will be claiming tax deductaible interest on ac D for 2 years.

     And after 2 years (when I make IP my PPOR and my PPOR an IP), If  I transfer all funds in ac A to ac C , Can I claim the interest on ac B as tax deductible ?

    Thank you for any suggestion and advice.

    Withdrawing money from an account won't help at all unless the money is used to purchase investment assets or pay investment expenses. Shuffling money around won't help.

    You will need to see a tax advisor I think. You should immediately stop paying any extra off the loan and change to IO. You may be able to set up another LOC and use that to pay the interest – which will help the loan increase and hence your deductions. but you had better get some advice.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Hi Andrew

    Do you have the offset linked to an investment loan or your own home loan? If you still have a home loan it would be preferable to link it to this – to save non-deductible interest.

    Also, your interest rate sounds a bit high too. Maybe you should consider looking around a bit or ask your lender for a bigger discount.

    The interest saved should be the equivalent of investing $5,000 at 5.50%pa = $275 saved per year = 75c per day. May not save much but it all adds up.

    It would be best to put all spare cash into your offset and to leave it there as long as possible.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    awsydney wrote:
    XYA 1. Think about it – the fastest way to wealth creation is to pay off your PPOR ASAP, therefore always P & I. There are no 2 ways to it. Why pay interest only on PPOR when there is absolutely no tax benefit. You are only making your bank richer. The only time I would do that is to get a family member to buy the property and you rent it from the family member who is paying interest only which is tax deductible for that member – both parties win. Your family member will have no issues of tenant not paying rent or you throwing wild parties and thrashing the place :) 2. Using LOC is fine provided it is put to good use, ie absolutely required. If not you are opening another debt opportunity and this puts you further away from asset / wealth accumulation. 3. Unit trusts can be volatile depending on who is managing the trusts. You also have to pay management fees regardless of whether the trust is making money. I would rather invest in property shares some of which offer a guaranteed return eg Myers shares were offering 15% guarantee returns. This is a lot higher than most investment properties and you dont have the hassles of paying strata fees, property management issues etc. Only thing is you can't live in the shares.

    I think aw has totally miss read the question on trusts.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    xya wrote:
    Hi all,

    I'm still trying to learn about property investment and this forum has been really helpful. Recently, I've been reading some books by Tony Melvin & Ed Chan, and I'm stuck trying to understand some of the concepts. So, some help is really appreciated.

    1) In the How to Achieve Wealth for Life book, there's a topic on not paying off your home loan asap. If I understood the book correctly, it gave an example of paying of a PPOR through a P&I loan for 30 years, versus having the PPOR on an Interest only loan and putting the difference into an IP. The total equity in latter is better. However, this seems to be different to some of the advice I've been given where I was told it's better to payoff PPOR asap and using its equity to get loans for IP. I'm a bit confused, so would appreciate to hear what others think.

    2) In the same book, there's a section on self-funding investment property, which suggests capitalising interest. I can't claim to understand the whole idea completely, but am I correct in assuming that the writers are suggesting to use LOC against the investment property's equity to pay off the interest & other cost? As long as the equity rises faster than the interest rate on the LOC, then it's OK?

    3) In a different book (How to Legally Redue Your Tax), there were examples of unit trusts being setup. It seems like a good idea, especially since income units can be owned by highest income owner if the properties in the trust are negatively geared, while capital units can be owned by the lower income earner. I'm just wondering if this sort of structure is widely used and if there are any downsides to it?

    Thanks.

    Hi

    I haven't read those books, but I think the some points:

    1) paying IO on your main residence reduces your monthly repayments which enables you to hold more investments. If the investments are growing faster than the interest being outlayed than this can help your overall position.

    I agree it is best to pay off non-deductible debt first is a good principle. But paying less means owning more.

    2) THis needs careful planning – see another recent thread on this topice. THe theory is you borrow to pay for investment expenses and free up more cash to pay into your non-deductibe debt (but see 1) – or into your 100% offset account. Overall the interest should be the same, but you are increasing your tax deductible interest.

    3). This would not work now in a way that would benefit you. To be able to claim the interest the unit holder would need to get all of the rent and the capital gain. See ATO TD 2009/17. A lot of people have deeds set up which are not commerically viable and the ATO will deny the interest deductions. Lots of anguish in years to come. You would also have problems borrowing for this these days.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Sorry, not sure where to put it on the forms.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Glennsa wrote:
    Thanks for the information, Terryw.  The legalese is starting to do my head in, but I think I understand the "issue" is that when they were capitalising their interest, they were claiming a deduction on not only the interest from the IP loan, but the interest on the interest in regards to the Line of Credit – so a double dip as it were.  Also implications that by paying off your PPOR and rasiing a LOC to the same amount you could be seen as trying to transfer your non-tax deductable debt to a tax deductable position.

    Am I at least half getting it? 

    Glennsa

    I think  capitalising the interest the LOC would be ok (see TD 2008/27, The principles governing the deductibility of compound interest are the same as those governing the deductibility of ordinary interest). The main problem with it was that it was one product set up secifically to reduce tax – with no other pupose.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    omiy wrote:
    Hi Terry,

    Thanks for that. Should I withdraw any extra repayments and put that into an offset account when I change to IO laon? Can you recommend any lenders?

    Thanks
    Lucia

    Withdrawing funds = borrowing. So it you borrow to invest in an offset account you will not have a reason to claim the interest on this new borrowing.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    mxd wrote:
    it feels risky,

    if you can pay 140K off in 12 months or so with the addition of 650 week (35K pa) then you would have you PPoR paid off in < than 2 years so I would probably not push my luck with the ATO.

    Some have private binding rulings. Its worth a try with a ruling I think

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Look directly at the relevant section in the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997, s 118-145.
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/itaa1997240/s118.145.html

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    You can increase the loan up to 80% of the value of the property (without LMI) assuming you can service. But your mum must agree to this. How you use the funds is up to you and your mum,

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Glennsa

    Sounds like you have heard of the Harts case. Many years ago a lender set up a loan product which was split into 2. One loan for for the investment property and the other for the home loan. The borrower then put all money to the home loan and all the interest on the investment loan capitalised.

    It went all the way to the high court who ruled it a 'scheme' to reduce tax and it was done with that dominant purpose.

    Interestingly in one of the judgments one of the justices said that capitalising interest was acceptable and he implied that it would have been ok if they have gone about it differently.

    One of the main things that worked against this product was that it was marketed as a way to save tax and it was a single product set up for saving tax.

    So you need to be very careful when setting up your loans. Ideally you should have the investment and the home loan at different banks and maybe have all the income and rents paid into a 100% offset account instead of into the loan. Also have a plan on how the investment  loan is going to be reduced to $0 in x years. All this will strengthen your position if the ATO challenges it.

    The Harts case is now authority for the definition of a "scheme".

    have a read at (not an easy read either):
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/HCA/2004/26.html

    An easier article:
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/28/1085641713197.html?from=storylhs

    See also this from the ATO
    http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/45127.htm
    They say the Hart case only applies to split or linked loans.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    This is good. Also note you will be able to claim tax deductions -likely to be depreciation on these systems.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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