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- YoungInvestor wrote:Is it possible to have trusts with lives longer than 80 years?
I think Ed Chan talks about their "Property Investment Trust" having a longer life, but is it possible to prepare this type of trust anywhere?
There is something know as the law against perpetuities which was designed to prevent rich families passing on their assets within trusts and going on forever. This is an old English common law which was brought over to Australia and each state developed legislation along these lines similar to the British. The only exception in Sout Australia. I've spoken to a few trust lawyers about this and they say it is not a little unknown secret but knowledge of how to get around the law of perpetuites with trusts has been around for years – what is unclear is the extent to which your trust must be within SA. eg. is it just the trustee's location, the state of registration of the deed, the directors of the trustee, the location of the office of the trustee, state of incorporation of the trustee company or is it the location of the real property of the trust. All this is unclear and you may only find out in 80 years!
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Good work spud
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
They would need a fair bit. All loans would need to be at the same bank and no more than 80% of the combined value of the properties.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
I like bankwest too – you can get a high interest account to hold the cash and a normal transaction account to transfer it etc.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
If you are building a house to keep and you sell and you have held the land more than 12 months you may get the 50% CGT discount ad pay no more than 24% tax. If you used a discretionary trust you may even pay less.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
hi Vita
Most trust discretionary deeds are worded in such a way as any company in which the trustee/appointor/named benefiary is an officer holder/director/shareholder etc then that company will be a benefiiary too. You could also name an existing company too if you wanted to.
In Australia there is no gift tax and you could gift a property to a trust but you would incurr stamp duty. You would also then need to pay rent to the trust. PPOR are CGT exempt, but not if held in a trust. So I cannot see the point, unless maybe if you are getting a new PPOR and want to keep the old one as an investment.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Hi Scott – not sure about that.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
After 80 years the trust comes to an end and its assets are transferred to beneficiaries.
Why have 2 trustees? If just doubles the risk and possibly reduces long term borrowing capacity.
It is very easy to change the trustee – you just have a meeting and the appointor appoints the new trustee and the old retires. but if your trust owns property you will have to arrange for the title to be changed and if it has a loan you will have to re-apply again and may have exit/entry fees.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
not sure what a supplemental deed is, but the deeds can be modified, with great care, when need be. eg. the recent Bamford case regarding the definition of income made it wider. Deeds need updating ever few years as laws change. That is why it is probably best to just form a new trust every few years. Ideally have one proeprty per trust and when that property is sold don't reuse the trust but form a new one – works out cheaper if you live in QLD as no stamp duty on trust deeds there!
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
It can also be a way to live off equity and to retire early. ie let loans capitalise and live on rents and dividends.
Goodluck with the ATO
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
You cannot add beneficiaries later after the trust is formed or it will be a resettlement. That means the ATO considers a whole new trust is being formed and all the assets from the old trust are transfered to the new trust = stamp duty and CGT.
But you do not have to add beneficiaries usually because most relatives will be included automatically. Deeds are worded so beneficiaries include "all children, future children, step children…….." etc (or the good ones are).
Kids can earn up to $3000 pa in passive income and pay no tax. If they are actually working they can earn more – like adults I think.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
YoungInvestor wrote:Very interesting Terry.After reading that, I will be comfortable in allowing the LOC I use to purchase shares to capitalise interest (until it reaches the limit of course).
I will definitely obtain a seperate ruling on setting up a seperate loan though – Seems a bit more risky and may come off as setting up a scheme.
Just ran some numbers on allowing the LOC interest to capitalise vs putting into offset. Should save me between $1500-200 p.a until such time as my offset balance reaches my home loan balance so thanks for the info


The only way I can repay you for you info is by spreading your name amongst my network and directing my NSW clients to you (very small number as I am based in Melb, but even one new customer for you would help so I'll see how I go).
Regards,
YISomeone with a few properties with some available equity could very quickly pay off their home loan using this method. Imagine if you had say $50,000 pa in rent coming in from 3 properites and could plough this all into your home loan.
It is a very powerful technique!
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
That would be unfair, but luckily it doesn't work like that.
Trusts don't pay tax at all, unless the money is not distributed.So if ABC Trust made a profit the company would pay no tax at all. The company's only role is trustee which is like a manager of the assets for the trust. It is the trust that makes the profit.
The trust would then distribute the profit to a wide pool of beneficiaries. So it pays no tax. It is received by the beneficairies and the trust income is added to their other income. If it is a CG the 50% discount can be applied when it hits the beneficiariy. So the top tax rate would be around 23%. If it is normal income this could even be dstibuted to a company and then the top tax rate would be 30%.
Also GST may be claimable by the trust depending on what sort of business and if it is registered.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
You need the trust deed which can cost from $185 up to around $1000.
Company set up costs $412 at asic
Each state may also require you to pay stamp duty on the trust. Was $200 in NSW, but recently went up to $550 I think. QLD was Nil in the past. Not sure about VIC.
If you need some advice it will cost you a bit more on top of all this – and it a good thing to have cause if you set it up wrong you will be in trouble.On going costs are $212 annual ASIC fee and accounting. The company will need a tax return which should be a nl return and should cost much, and the trust will need a tax return – as well as your own personal ones. The accounting shouldn't really cost that much more than if you put the asset in your own name as there is not really much more involved.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
not paying the interest on a loan, but letting it build up.
Or borrowing from another loan to pay interest.Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Here is the TD i referred to which says capitalised interest retains its character:
http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?docid=TXD/TD200827/NAT/ATO/00001
I think it is pretty clear, but the ATO can still apply Part IVA and say you are setting up a scheme to avoid tax, so best to get a rling on the overall setup. ie letting interest capitalise and not applying any income for that asset to this loan but applying it to the PPOR loan or offset account.Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
ok, thats good
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Yes. if you get a LOC and use it to purchase an income producing asset and then let the interest capitalise it can be deductible. ie you just let the loan increase, not pay the interest, but still claim it and then use the income from that asset to pay down non-deductible debt – or even better to keep the income in the offset.
You could also set up a LOC and then use this to pay the interest on the investment loan and put all income into your offset – wage and rents.
But you have to be careful and should get a private ruling otherwise the ATO may deem it a scheme to avoid tax.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Never use a company to hold appreciating assets – just for business.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
One potential problem is that over time you will end up dramatically under charging your sister because you will be reluctant to put up the rent. But someone looking after the property properly should outweigh this.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
http://www.Structuring.com.au
Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au



