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  • Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
    Join Date: 2001
    Post Count: 16,213

    Whoa! beware of paying money into a investment loan and redrawing it.

    Pretty soon none of the interest will be deductible, but you will still have a large debt. Its a tax time bomb!

    To understand why you will need to know a bit about the ATO’s tax treatment of loans.

    Just remember:

    Every time you pay money into a loan this is a deposit.

    Every time you withdraw from a loan this is considered new borrowings.

    Deductibility of interest depends on what the funds borrowed were used for.

    So, say you had a $100,000 loan for an investment property. Generally the interest on the whole amount borrowed to purchase the investment property will be deductible.

    Say you set up your loan with the idea of saving interest and you had arranged for your monthly salary to go straight into the loan. This will save you interest as your balance will immediately decrease.

    So you had your $5000 wage deposited into the loan account. The new balance is $95,000.

    The next day you take out $4,000 to buy groceries and for living expenses. The ATO will consider this to be new borrowings. The interest on this $4,000 will only be deductible if the funds were used for investment or business purposes. In this case it won’t be because the expenses purchased were of a private or personal nature.

    Now you have a $99,000 loan, but only the interest on $95,000 is deductible with interest on $4,000 not deductible.

    This is just the first month.

    You then do it again and again. Assuming you were paying the interest separately and in addition to the wage being deposited you will have paid the tax deductible loan off in 20 months, but you will still have a non-deductible loan outstanding of $80,000.

    A way to have avoided this and still have saved the same interest without the tax complications would have been to use a loan with a 100% offset account attached. All money, savings, wages, rents etc should have gone into this account. This would save the same in interest as if you had paid it into the loan.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Your incomes are pretty much the similar so it won't really matter whose name you get it in with the first one. I would suggest you only use 1 to reduce the risk – if something were to go wrong only 1 goes down instead of both.

    If it works, then look a using a discretionary trust for the next one – again just using 1 person, keeping the other free. When you hit the borrowing limit start another trust with the 2nd person guaranteeing the loans.

    You have plenty of equity so can get a fair few properties – but go slow and plan properly.

    Actually, since the property is in your name let the husband guarantee or take the loans and therefore the risk. If he gets sued your house is separate so would probably be safe.

    You have also got to get rid of those credit cards – if you mean you have $20k outstanding.
    MAybe set up a small loan with the bank on a lower interest rate and pay this out asap. With no mortgage to pay you should be able to get rid of it in a year.

    With the new property you should set up a LOC on the existing house and then use that for deposit and costs on the new one. Borrow the remaining 80% from a different bank.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    In the early days of investing it is very hard to avoid LMI. Just keep saving and letting the growth kick in and you will get there.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    LOC is a particlular product. Each bank has slight differences- could be that it has a cheque book included, not necessary to pay the interest each month (capitalise) etc.

    There are also very important tax consequences between using a LOC and redraw or topping up an existing loan. You should neve do it if it will mix personal and investment debt.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    330,000 x 80% = $264,000
    (this is the max loan in total to avoid LMI)

    $264,000 – existing loan of $255,000 = $9,000
    (= the max extra you could take out without LMI)

    If you wanted to borrow more and were willing to pay LMI you could go to 90%
    $330,000 x 90% = $297,000
    Less current loan of $255,000
    = $42,000 extra

    (LMI may be able to be added to the loan with some lenders, others make you pay it or take it out of the money available)

    BTW it is very risky to buy off the plan. What happens if your circumstances change and you cannot get a loan = you cannot settle.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    The equity is 330,000-255,000
    =$75,000

    But you cannot use all of it. The banks will only lend a certain %. ie LVR.

    They will generally lend 80% without paying LMI
    or you can go up to 90% with LMI

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Loan A and B have no connection. Just think of them as being 2 loans at different banks. Loan B can be a LOC so you will only need to pay interest when you take the money out.

    In your situation,
    $330,000 x 80% = $264,000
    Current loan = $255,000
    Available equity = $9,000

    This is assuming you stay at 80% LVR – you obvously started much higher .
    So to get a separate LOC you would have to restructure the loan to lower the limit to $255,000

    If you wanted to keep the redraw available you would have to do the calculations on $265,000 – or whatever the limit is now.

    Because your LVR is relatively high you would need to wait a bit longer to do this.

    I agree it is not good to pay down the loan if you are thinking of renting it out. Keep the cash for the PPOR.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Yes, never cross collateralise.  There are many reasons – but tax isn't one of them.

    What you would do it to take out a separate loan on the first property and use that for deposit for the second.

    eg. $100,000 House with $50,000 loan (Loan A)
    80% value is $80,000
    You you take out another loan for $30,000 (loan B)
    Total loans = $80,000
    LVR 80%

    You then find property B
    Use $20,000 deposit from loan B
    and borrow the remaining $80,000 as a new loan, (loan C).

    You have borrowed 100% for the second property but without cross collateralising the loans.
    The interest on Loans B and C would be tax deductible as they have been used for investments.

    A few years down teh track Property A has increased to $200,000 so you can take out loan D up to 80% less the existing loans = another $80,000.

    repeat the process.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Well one partner is just buying out the second. So it will be just the same as buying a another property – you need to apply for the loan, bank assesses the applicant, does the valuation, gives the approval and then the solicitor changes the title. The only difference is negotiations between buyer and seller should be easier.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    hi

    I would think a discretionary trust is worth investigating further.

    What I would do it to set up a LOC, or maybe 2 on the existing house (I assume it is paid off??). Use one for onlending to the trustee of the new trust for the 20% plus costs of the new puchase. The remaining 80% can come from a new stand alone loan.

    As for the existing house you will have a few deductions for expenses such as rates and insurances etc. Instead of paying this with your cash you can borrow from the 2nd LOC and let the interest capitalise. This will slowly build up a debt related to the investment and the interest will be deductible and save you tax – although it will only be small, it all helps.

    From there you should set up a 100% offset account on the new trust loan (the 80% one) and place all rents in there. You may even be able to lend the $60k cash you have to the trust at nil interest and this will save the trust interest on its loan and therefore  make a greater profit which you can then distribute tax effectively.

    ie you will be deceasing your personal incomes and increasing the trusts which is more tax effecient.

    Check this with your accountant.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Actually they will know from the tax return – the location of the income. But if you have been contracting on and off and paye in between it should be ok.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    no, they won't actually know. As long as you have held the ABN for 2 years at least and are registered for GST for 1 year at least.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Sarah Finn wrote:
    We have been told that you cannot refinance for an increased mortgage once the value of Property A goes up and use it to pay for Property B if property A is an investment and Property B is your own home; but you can refinance an investment and use the money to purchase another investment property, ie, all investment funds/mortgages must be used for investment purchases. However, what if you purchase property A as an investment – refinance property A a couple of years later once the value had risen, and used that money, plus some of your own cash, to purchase property B which you rent out for a year or so, then move into? At the time of purchase, it was an investment, but fairly soon after using the investment funds to top up the mortgage, it becomes your principal place of residence. And does it get more complicated if you refinance property A twice and use that cash to pay off the mortgage at property B while you still have renters, and still move in a year or two later?

    Hi Sarah

    I think you have confused yourself.

    You can refinance any loan as long as you have the income and equity. You can also increase any loan – but whether the interest on the increase is deductible will depend on what you use the funds for.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    They will generally treat you as self employed and all you need is the last 2 years tax returns.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    The lender probably won't lend if they know about you doing vendor finance – especially at 95%.

    Have you considered using the equity in the existing property or maybe even a personal loan>?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    You will need a conveyancer or solicitor to help with the transfer too.

    Maybe you could think about buying him out?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    yes, basically. But you don't really need to change the loan to PI or pay it off. Personal choice I guess.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    hi Nico

    Don't worry about paying down the loans at this stage. You first want to get rid of all personal debt. So paying down an investment loan will delay this and it will end up with you paying more tax.

    Once you have paid down the PPOR loan and any other personal loans/credit cards etc then you could start paying PI for an investment. But even then i would not for a few reasons.

    IO loans are only IO for an initial period of 5 or 10 years. So if you wait they will end up being paid off anyway.
    Even if you keep newing the loan as IO you will have rising rents and the debt will be reduced in real terms by inflation.

    eg imagine you had puchased a house in Sydney in 1960 for $16,000 and kept the loan IO for the past 50 years. You would be paying $960 per year in interest. You would probably be getting $20,000 pa in rent. So with a few weeks rent you could pay off the entire loan.

    ALso think of the lower repayings of an IO compared to PI would mean you have more money available which could mean you can afford more investments.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    same principles apply whether you are renting or buying again. Deductibility depends on what the borrowed funds are used for.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Hi Wenever

    You have heaps of equity so heaps of potential. The first thing you should consider is making both loans interest only. Set up a LOC on each property for the equity up to 80% LVR (this may not be easy in this climate).

    Then you need some expert tax advice. You can structure the investment property in such a way that will pay off your home loan sooner. I roughly worked out that for every $100,000 in a LOC you can pay an extra $6,000 off your PPOR loan over and above what you are paying now. Your case may be much more.

    At the same time you can also start investing in further properties (and making further savings).

    You should look at setting up a discretionary trust. But you need to be careful on who you put where in it so as to maximise borrowing capacity. I would recomend 2 trusts with only one partner invovled in each. This will enable you to borrow more, ie increase long term serviceability.

    You could buy in the SMSF, but I would suggest you don't because any equity developed there won't be accessible. Look at shares maybe.

    Whether you should sell the child care centre would depend on if you think it is going to increase in value. Selling means CGT, and other costs, so it is only worth doing if it is underperforming.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
    Email Me

    Lawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au

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