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  • Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Intrigue wrote:
    I also heard that the new contract much reflect the same price as the first, thus any profits or cost coverings have to be a seperate deal (very confusing and alittle messy for a new purchaser not to mention gives the appearance of being a bit shady)

    I don't think so. The profit for the middle man would be the price the option is sold for less their purchase price.
    eg $500,000 property with an option agreement sold to X for $1,000 with a strike price of $550,000.

    X sells the option for $20,000. ie they reassign the option to another person Z for $20,000. X's profit is $19,000.
    Z then signs the contract to purchase for $550,000 and settles on the property.

    Intrigue wrote:
    I had thought because of the changes they had gone to the 'and or nominee' to avoid taking ownership and thus paying stampduty but you say this will not work for them either.

    I am not sure, but I think there would be double stamp duty (if the OSR found out) unless, maybe, there was a prior agreement between the nominee and nominor.

    Intrigue wrote:

    I am guessing they would also need to pay CGT? or is this avoided as they dont actually take ownership of the title?

    Yep, i assigning an option would be a CGT event.

    Intrigue wrote:

    Intrigue wrote:
    Why are they still used? Why is it that investors stil talk about these as if they are a good way to avoid stamp duty and or tax?

    I am not sure. Some people try to mystify things or make them look harder and then come up with a complex solution.

    Intrigue wrote:
    Option – Why would a seller give someone and option – surely you would do a conditional contract?

    I guess they are hoping to keep the option fee. Same with shares. If you sell options on your shares you can make great returns in addition to your normal dividends. If you sign a contract of sale for land then it is more complicated with keeping deposits, assigning it etc.

    Intrigue wrote:
    Call Option – If the property goes over $521,000 he must sell to the buyer however if the property falls the buyer can walk away and leave his $1,000 behind for the seller? again not so sure why this is a good deal for the seller.

    Intrigue wrote:

    Seller gets to keep the $1000 and the property. May not be worth it for some, but others may think it a good deal. The option fee could also be higher too. $1000 was just an example. However, I can't see any seller doing it for much less than $1000 as it wouldn't be worth the hassle.

    Intrigue wrote:
    Put Option – How is the buyer locked in when all he stands to loose is the $1,000. He doesnt have to buy?

    Intrigue wrote:

    The put agreement locks the buyer in. The buyer must buy the property.

    It is very confusing isn't it. I still have to think about put /call for a few moments before i write to get my head around it

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Let me try:
    Option – firstly this is an agreement between X and Y where X can buy Y's property, but doesn't have to. Y must sell to X if the conditions are met. So Y is locked in, but X isn't

    Call Option is an option where X thinks the price is going to rise.
    eg.  X buys a $1000 option on a $500,000 property with a strike price of $520,000.  X would only buy an option if he thinks the property will rise above $521,000 (strike price plus his option fee). Y sells the option because he thinks it won't and he will get $1000 for his troubles. Here the seller is locked in.

    Put Option. This is one where the seller thinks the value will fall.
    Seller Y sells X and option to purchase with a strike price of $500,000 and an option fee of $1,000. If the property goes down in value below $499,000 X ain't going to buy – because it has gone down in value. Y will have gained by keeping the option premium. Here the buyer is locked in.

    Put/Call is a combination of the above.
    The seller is locked in and the buyer is locked in. Neither can get out of the contract. These used to be popular because you could enter into a binding agreement without entering into a contract of sale for the property. Just an option contract. Stamp duty would be avoided if the buyer wanted to onsell before settlement. State Govts have introduced new laws to prevent this now.

    And/or Nominee
    This is where you sign a contract and put you name and ' and/or nomiee' after it. Before settlement you are able to nominate someone else as the purchaser.
    This was used, illegally, in the past by some to onsell before settlement and avoid paying stamp duty. It would only have been possible if you had entered into a written agreement with the nominee before you signed the contract (but people used to back date these agreements). These days the OSR are much more strict regarding this and it could result in stamp duty being paid twice.

    When you enter into an option agreement you are entering a separate agreement than the contract of sale of land. Usually the option agreement would have the contract of sale attached to it as an annexure, but you are not entering into that contract until you exercise the option.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    I just took out a NAB loan myself, interest only of course, I think the IO period was for 10 years (but i didn't check too hard). If you want to go for another IO term then they might require some payslips etc. Most people would probably refinance during the 5 years anyway, to take advantage of changing rates, acccesing equity etc.

    If you are borrowing money to invest in an offset account then you are not borrowing to invest. you would be borrowing at say 7% and not getting any interest, so I doubt the ATO would see it as commercial. If you are actually lending to a trust then you are essentially onlending to a another person. If you don't get any interest then it would be impossible to justify the claiming of interest you pay.

    2. Not sure exactly what you mean here, but it would be best to get a separate loan for the increase, but remember the interest on this portion will only be claimable if the money is used for investment purposes.

     

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Also consider what happens if one goes bankrupt. Or worse, divorce. What is a spouse puts a caveat on the property and you are unable to sell – and he/she subpoenas all records related to the property etc.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    You used to be able to borrow based on the value if the contract was exchanged more than 12 months ago – with generally no more than the purchase price being available. I am not sure if this is still the case however.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Yes thats true. At 95% LVR you probably couldn't cross collateralise them anyway.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Troodyg – but you can claim it back.

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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    only if there is a profit.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    I think that article is regarding those who have owned properties and never claimed the depreciation. If they get one done now the can amend tax returns up to 4 years ago to claim the depreciation they missed out on.

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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    oh, sorry, don't know much, actually anything, about that.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Interest in advance are the ones where you pay 1 year's full interest upfront, it is a fixed rate.

    For the normal loans, whether variable or fixed, (ie the ones where you pay interest each month) the rate would be the same for PI or IO.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Without checking too closely i think if you purchase an option on a property for $1 then you would pay stamp duty on the amount of $1 – there is probably a minimum nominal sum.

    If you then onsold the option you would have  capital gain of selling price less purchase price less costs. So on your example $499,999 capital gain. You wouldn't get the 50% discount unless you had held it for 12 months of more. less legals.

    Why not ring the OSR and ask them the question. Say you are buying an option on some land and how is the stamp duty calculated. They won't give legal advice but should be able to help with a basic question like this.

    GST is a different matter. I am not sure if it would apply, but if it did then it is 10%, so you would pay 10c on the purchase and have to charge 10% on the sale which would be $50,000 on $500,000.

    On another note, why would a vendor accept a $1 option price? They will not benefit much out of it, and will probably spend $500 in fees for their lawyer to explain it to them (and tell them not to accept).

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Benjamin,

    I like no. 11 – stop taking their calls!!!!

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    number 8 wrote:
    You can purchase this with a bare trust, your name will not be in public record. Any good accountant will organise this for you.

    http://www.birchcorp.com.au

    This may make borrowing complicated!

    What about a discretionary trust with a corporate trustee. It is unlikely she will do an ASIC check.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Yes, i believe GST is applicable to commercial. Don't forget you you might be able to claim it on a purchase.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    I agree. Wouldn't even consider the mortgage managers because of the fact that all of their loans are mortgage insured.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    It will be hard to sell the idea of an option to a vendor because they will not probably understand it and they really won't get much out of the deal other than the option fee. You could increase your option fee and remind them that they get to keep this even if the option lapses and nothing further happens.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Hey, that was a joke too BTW. Poor people benefit by being the recipients of the donations.

    NSL, what are you thinking about when you ask the question? are you thinking of setting up a charity?

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    BB8

    I think you might be misreading, or maybe looking at interest in advance??

    I just looked at the NAB site, http://nab.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/nab/nab/home/personal_finance/6/1?urid=1279600610434, and didn't see anything like you mentioned.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    NHG

    I think you have considered most things, but perhaps the most important is how to structure the  group so that you do not waste all your borrowing capacity. Imagine if the bank requires personal guarantees from all members – each person will be responsible for the whole loan. So applying for future loans will mean that the whole debt of the first loan will be taken as being borrowed by that person, yet possibly only one quarter of the income will be allowed. This can greatly decrease borrowing capacity.

    You may also not know what other debts etc the other members have. One person may drag the group down because of higher debts compared with their income.

    On the other hand you may need all 4 people's incomes to service. And a lender may not allow someone's guarantee unless that  person is part of the group.

    So you need to be careful in structuring. Some banks will want guarantees from all directors. Others will want guarantees from all units holders or all named beneficiaries – you may not want this.

    Giving guarantees also creates considerable risk. Its best not to give a guarantee unless you must. If one project goes bad you don't want to ruin the whole group. All will have their credit files damaged and personal assets at risk.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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