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- andrew.os wrote:Thanks for that Terry, makes sense!
So a workable (and legal?) solution would be to buy property in a trust, take out a loan in my name, then essentially lend the money to the trust and the trust pays me back exactly what my repayments are? I then claim this on my own tax return, the trust carries the loss if it cant pay back the repayments as I would? This way the difference in loan repayments/rent is paid by me but I claim the whole interest amount. Is this right or have I gotten side tracked here?
Thanks heaps mate
Not really – as that would not work.
The ATO would not allow that if the trust was a discretionary trust. You would be borrowing money and 'investing' (vague term!) into a trust – but the trustee may not give you a return as the nature of a discretionary trust is that the trustee has discretion to whom distributions are made. So there would be no commercial senses in borrowing and investing in something which you may not get a return from.
It would work with a unit trust as the trustee of a unit trust would give distributions in accordance with the units held. ie fixed entitlements. If you own 50% of the units you would be guaranteed 50% of the distributions. The trouble with a unit trust is it is fixed and therefore not flexible. You could have units owned by a discretionary trust, but then you would run into the same problem as above.
Another option is for you to borrow money and lend that money to your discretionary trust. But that would not work either because you would need to charge the trust interest, otherwise you could not justify claiming a deduction yourself. And you couldn't charge less interest than you are borrowing at as there is no commercial point in doing that and the ATO would disallow it.
If you borrow money and lend it at the same rate the net result is nil as they cancel each other out and the trust ends up with the deduction and a greater loss which you can't really use unless the trust has other income.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Just think of the trust as a separate person.
1. If you buy a property and it is running at a loss how would you cover it? You would have to borrow more money or to use savings etc to cover the loss.
2. If you borrow money for investment the interest would be deductible. same with the trust.
If someone gifts money to someone else any interest on this money if it is borrowed wouldn't be deductible as there is no return. same with the trust.3 You are talking about the trust. The company is just the trustee and legal owner. it is the trust that will have the loss and it should be able to be carried forward. But you need to ask your accountant about making family trust elections if this is the case.
4. Company can't but the trust can.
5. the loss won't be paid back to the ATO as the trust hasn't borrowed from the ATO. Any income can be used to offset any accumulated losses.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Buying a house is a capital expenses. If you buy a house in your own name you can't claim the cost of it outright – it is the same as a company or a trust. The house and fittings etc can be depreciated over a number of years though.
Just think of the company as a person – as that is what it is under the corporations act. It can sue and be sued, enter into contracts in its own name etc. The only thing it can't do is marry.
Also, you will find there are many tax hurdles to overcome if you are contracting and then using a company – you may still be individually taxed at personal rates if you/your company don't meet certain requirements – its know as the alienation of personal services income (PSI).
Also note that it is not a good idea to buy your properties in the same structure as your business. Business is risky and there is a good chance of being sued or insolvency etc. You don't want to lose your properties as well as the business. So you would set up a company to trade and a separate company as trustee for a discretionary trust to own assets.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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A LLC is a type of American company structure so you would have to set it up in America.
You would need to comply with american corporations law re the transferring of money – remember a company is a separate legal entity so you can't just take its money as if it was your own. As long as you are doing it properly you would not want to transfer too often as the fees will eat up a lot of it. Try to keep any profits there and then send them home once per year or keep reinvesting.
You also need to consider the initial sum used to start it off – do you lend it to the company, gift it or will it be share capital. You need to be aware of american company law, tax law, bankruptcy/insolvency laws as well as australian.
A LLC is an american entity so the company would be paying tax there. The ATO may also want to know about this and may tax you again here, depending on how it is set up, but you may get a tax credit for some or all of the tax paid over there. I imagine you would need company tax returns in america as well as individual tax returns and then individual tax returns here too.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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There are no secrets or special ways you can get around it. you need to put in your own cash or borrow 90% and pay LMI.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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I remember there used to be living away from home allowances or tax concessions
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Bloody hell! what sort of advice is that???
Firstly you will be up for LMI again. It may be aroound 3% of the loan amount. Then you have loan exit fees and govt charges.
Secondly why use cash to purchase an investment property when you have personal debt. You are just throwing money away if you do so.
And why would you want to use a LOC as the main loan for the new IP?
I would suggest you stay with the existing bank, pay your cash off you home loan and then set up a new split and use that to invest. This would be more tax effective and save you costs.
Your broker doesnt know what he is talking about and is probably aiming to boost his commission. He is not invovled in the sale too is he?
I would ditch the broker asap.
But I also think you are too highly geared.Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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I would probably refinance the original loan and split it into claimable portions. eg if only the interest on the $85k relates to the property make this one split. and the private stuff another split. Both should be IO.
Then, if you have enough equity, make a third split in the form of a LOC and use that as deposit for the next property. borrow the remaining 80% as a new IO loan.
Make sure your main residence loan is IO and have a 100% offset account attached to this.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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or just do a search direct with LTO
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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You should not pay PI on an investment while you have personal debt – otherwise you will be throwing away tax.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Pretty much locked away.
You may be able to do something by a carefully structured loan to pay the expenses of your investmnet property, including the interest.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Yes it is possible. But the interest on the extra borrowings will only be deductible if they are used for investment purposes. in your eg the $180,000 – what will it be used for?
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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On an expected profit of $30,000 you will find that the real profit is nil so you may not have any tax to worry about.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Redraw = borrow.
So if you redraw money and then refinance with another bank this won’t change anything. The extra portion is still borrowed and the interest on this portion will only be deductible if you use it for investment related stuff.
I would advise you to get an offset account asap and avoid the problems.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Love and affection doesn't have much to do with it. Spouses can transfer properties to each other without stamp duty in some circumstances. This will vary from state to state, but I think Victoria is one of the most generous.
Of course, tax is a different matter and don't think there are any exceptions – unless you are breaking up – CGT would be assessed at market rates.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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You could argue that you are trustee for the other 2. This is what you are really. But you may have trouble proving this to the satisfaction of the office of state revenue – if you could you would avoid stamp duty on transferring their shares of the others back to their names.
Another option is to make a declaration of trust now, leave it in your name with you as trustee for the other 2, For tax purposes it would be considered to be each as owning their shares. If you make a new declaration of trust then stamp duty would apply.
For the rent, i would think you could divide the market rent by 3 and you take your share
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
for starters
see s118-145 ITAA 1997and
ATO ID 2010/193
Rental property expenses: co-owner rents the property
http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?locid=%27AID/AID2010193%27&PiT=99991231235958Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
You would have given the solicitor and the CU an interest in your property so as to enable them to put a writ on the property. This was probably drafted into the agreements you signed.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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JessW wrote:Just another question regarding cgt, which you may be able to help me with Richard (or anyone else!)…. I have heard that you can be an "owner builder" once every 3 years and pay no cgt?So, my situation is, we have a PPOR for which we have lived in for 5 years, and we have an IP that we purchased in May this year, have just renovated and are obviously thinking of selling. (Although happy to wait until next year to sell, as I have a tenant moving in shortly for 6 months). But, in theory, if we wanted to sell the IP now, could we avoid Capital Gains Tax by saying we are "owner builders"?
Hope this makes sense!
Thanks
JessThere is no such rule.
But you may be able to avoid CGT on the second property if you have previously lived in it at some stage.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
It depends on what sort of people. If one family unit a discretionary trust may be worth looking at. If bunches of separate people this may not work well (as the trustee has discretion on who to give income to) so you may want to look at unit trusts (which will enable the 50% CGT discount) or companies (Which won’t)..
If you do use a unit or a company then look at a discretionary trust owning the units or shares.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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