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  • Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    A call option is one which gives you the right, but not obligation, to buy something.

    A put option is one which gives you an obligation to sell if the other party exercises their option.

    These used to be used as a way of locking someone into a purchase, but giving them the ability to onsell without have to pay stamp duty, by assigning their option to a new purchaser who would settle. But this 'loophole' has been closed by most states now – in NSW the Duties Act was amended many years ago to make stamp duty payable by the middle man as well as the final purchaser.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Companies are separate legal entities separate to shareholders and directors. Directors can only be pursued in limited circumstances. Of course if anyone provides a personal guarantee then they can be pursued in relation to that, but not other company debt.

    If you have your wife as director and the company is sued and the creditors are able to come after her for some reason, then her personal assets are at risk. If your wife owns half of your house then this will be at risk. Even if you were to own the whole house then it could still be at risk, especially if she or the company is providing funds for the payment of your loan etc. It could be argued that you are trustee for her share.

    You need professional advice if you are starting something risky as how you structure it now may have a great impact in years to come.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Desertchik wrote:
    We have 2 IP properties which are currently owned in one partner's name and we would like to place them in our Discretionary Property Trust.  I understand this can be done but not sure the best way to go about doing this. 

    The reason we'd like to include them in the Trust is to build our Trust equity base for further borrowings as both properties have considerable equity which could be accessed and we would like to dispurse dividends appropriately between trustees.

    Both properties are currently financed so would require refinancing.  Transfer of title to the Trust would tale place at that time? Would this involve CGT & Stamp Duty?  Is this considered a loan to the Trust?   

    Lastly.  Can we, at some point in the future, pay the trustees for this 'loan'?  How would we do that?

    Hi

    Sounds like you want to release equity from the investment properties????

    To transfer existing properties into a trust it is basically the same as selling them to the trust. So you will have all the costs associated with a sale and all the costs associated with a purchase – except maybe real estate agent commissions. GCT will apply (if there was any gain!). Loans will need to be paid out and re-applied for. Stamp duty etc.

    It still maybe worth while. You probably shouldn't do both properties in the same financial year as you may end up paying more tax.

    You mention dividends – but trusts don't have dividends. Trusts have distributions – and these don't have to go to the trustees, but to the beneficiaries – usually at the discretion of the trustee, which means lowest taxed usually receive first.

    You would need a conveyancer – better a solicitor  -to do the transfer. Stamp duty would be payable then, but CGT would be when you do your tax return for that year. You could lend money to the trust to pay for stamp duty, but the CGT is yours! You should see a good accountant about the tax aspects. And your lawyer should tell you about the asset protection aspects.

    Not sure what you mean about paying trustees. But if you mean can the trustees receive payment for acting then the answer is yes – if the deed permits it, but this would be income to them. If you mean can the trust payback the trustees for the money borrowed to pay stamp duty and deposit etc, then yes – you should have a loan agreement drawn up for this.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    There are a number of issues to consider.

    1. You can rent out your main residence for u to 6 years and still claim it as your main residence. However, if you are not earning an income from it then it can remain as your main residence indefinitely.
    see s118-145(3) ITAA 1997:
    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/itaa1997240/s118.145.html

    2. The trust bit involves a lot of issues – legal and tax.
    Firstly the trustee, or directors of the trustee, have a duty to look after the property of the trust in the best interests of the beneficiaries and not to personally benefit themselves. So you need to take great care in how you do this. You must first check the trust deed and make sure you are allowed to rent the property from the trust. If so does it have to be a market rates? If your deed doesn't allow this then another beneficiary could possibly sue you down the track.

    As for the tax side, you seem to want the trust to claim a deduction until the property becomes positively geared and then live there rent free. This sounds like a scheme with the main purpose being a tax deduction – but it could possibly work if you structure it correctly. There is no requirement to pay market rent, but there would be if you want to claim a deduction for expenses or the ATO would reduce the amount claimable.

    Any loss generated will be trapped in the trust so unless the trust has other income there will not be any tax savings in the short term.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    APerry wrote:

    There has to be net income to distribute before it can be used. As this is unlikely at first and there seem to be no current beneficiaries it is pretty debatable whether a structure is warrented or not. I wouldn't bother, I'd ratgher use the short term tax benefits and savings on expenses, but can also see why some people would choose to use a trust in this situation.

    Yes, I can agree with that, but the long term benefits of using a trust may outweigh the short term disadvantages of not being able to claim the losses.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Putting it in redraw would mean paying down the loan. When you withdraw it the interest may not be deductible if you use the funds for private expenses.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
    http://www.Structuring.com.au
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Aqeel wrote:
    Thanks everyone!

    Qlds007 you have mentioned that …"negative gearing cannot be cliamed and is closeted within the Trust".

    What does this mean? That negative gearing is not an option?

    Cheers!

    A trust is a separate tax payer. So if there is a loss it cannot be offset against your personal income.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    APerry wrote:
    Aqeel wrote:
    I am qualified engineer and has got a new job in mines ($ is twice as what I was earning last year).

    I do own my first house which I brought in 2009.

    If I want to buy as many investment properties by myself (quick) and safe. What structure would be best? Bcos from Steve's book I see that 'family trust' has…

    1. Asset protection
    2. Tax minimisation
    3. Borrowing capacity

    My question is, can one person open 'family trust'? Or how is it created? Like what are the steps?

    Cheers and thanks for your help!
    Aqeel

     

    If you are the only potential beneficiary I can't see how a tust would have any tax benefis to you. With this structure you would need to set it up with a coporate trustee, as you can't have a family trust with the one trustee also being the only beneficiary. The use of a corporate trustee would give you a level of asset protection, but increases costs and reduces your lending options when it comes to residential finance.

     Regards
    Alistair

    I have to disagree with Alistair.

    Even a single person can obtain tax benefits of using a discretionary trust – 2 ways at least:
    – By setting up a company as beneficiary and capping the tax at 30% (this can usually be done later).
    – By having future family members come into existence and become beneficiaries – spouses, children, mistresses (in that order).

    And although you cannot have a trust with the beneficiary the same as the trustee (you can't hold assets on trust for yourself) you can have a trust with yourself as trustee and a whole range of family beneficiaries – eg future spouses, children, grandchildren, step children etc.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    JacM wrote:
    Right okay.  Damn I wish someone in the know had pulled me aside when I bought the house and said for gods sake luv, interest only with offset.  None of this principal and interest business nooooooo.

    Thanks Terry. 

    Don't worry too much Jac, we all make mistakes. I have made plenty.

    Just remember to try to learn from the mistakes of others as it can save you the hassle.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    JacM wrote:
    @dan: yep I could remain in my current residence for another year or two, but keen to move at or before the two year mark.

    @terry: indeed.  I have done those sums and the sums say sell   I hate that.  I like the rule of never sell.  Such a waste of stamp duty, legals and selling fees!  I was kind of hopeful someone would spring up with some innovative way to hang onto the current place and move into the new one, without getting stung on the taxes as you say.  I finally understand that I cannot expect to borrow against current PPOR to buy new PPOR and expect to deduct interest on current PPOR even though it would be an IP.  Reason being the borrowings would be for a new PPOR which is not an investment item and thus no deductibility.  What I still do not understand is:  let's pretend my current PPOR had been interest only from day one, and therefore the full principal amount were still owing (albeit with a huge pile of cash in the offset).  If I then withdraw that offset money to use for the new PPOR, would the debt on what is the current PPOR (converted to IP) be deductible?  It is a debt…. the original purpose of the loan I took out was for PPOR purposes…. but by declaring I now want that house to be an IP would that debt's mortgage interest suddenly be deductible???  Seems weird…

    Yep. The original loan would be deductible. The purpose of the loan was to buy a property. If the use of the property later changes the loan is still intact and should be claimable if the place becomes an investment.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    You generally cannot nominate someone else without stamp duty being paid again – unless, perhaps, if you have a written agreement before the first contract was signed.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Trusts are great for a number of reasons. One not many people think of is the ability to include outsiders in servicing calculations if you suddenly find you cannot get finance.

    eg If you bought land in your own name then later couldn't get finance to build you are pretty much stuck. But if you had a company as trustee for a trust you could easily add in another director to the company and then get the bank to assess serviceability on both incomes. You couldn't do this personally – unless you were spouses maybe.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    I think it would often work out better if you sold. Unless, maybe, you had large sums of cash to use to purchase the new one.

    Do some sums and see:
    How much tax you will pay on the rent of the old one, and
    How much non deductible interest you will pay on the new one.

    And then compare this to the sums as if you had sold the old one.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    nadaimee wrote:

    Hi All,

    I am hoping someone out there can provide me with some ideas on how to structure myself. I am financial enough to buy-renovate-hold 2 properties. I am only interested in doing quick turnaround cosmetic renovations and then rent-out for a minimum 12 months to reduce GST, then re-value and decide on whether to keep or sell and repeat the process. I earn good money in my full time position so I don't need to have positively geared properties.

    What I am hoping to do is as follows:

    1. Take advantage of FHOG and buy 1 property in my son's name.
    2. Have my son do most of the renovation work.
    3. Pay my son a weekly wage (this is the area which I am unsure of, so if anyone has any ideas on how I can structure this it would be greatly appreciated).

    I have read some posts on this forum re: unit trusts and was wondering whether this could be a possibility.

    Keenly awaiting any feedback.

    Regards,

    FHOG is not available for trustees.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    eg if the balance of the card was $1000 and you had used $204.95 of this for investment, then this means 20.94% of the card is investment related. So when you borrow $204.95 from your LOC and pay it into the credit card then only 20.94% of this will come off the investment portion.

    However, assuming you pay the card off in full each month, then it may not be such an issue. No interest would be added to the card, so it should be easy to apportion the investment/private balances

    So the interest on the money borrowed to refinance the credit card debt may not be fully deductible if you have used that credit card for personal expenses too if you do not pay the card off in full. If you do I think it may be not much of a problem.

    In practice if you were audited by the ATO I don't think that would really care to look into it that much as the sums will not be that great.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Well, actually it depends on the type of trust. I had assumed it was discretionary.

    But if you are using a unit trust it may be possible to claim a deduction, in personal income, for a loan used to buy units.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Long answer is YES.

    2. The trust can claim a deduction for the interest.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    The trouble will arise if you are paying personal expenses with the credit card as well. Once you do that it will be one big loan without the possibility of separating deductible and non deductible portions. So if you then refinance this loan with a new loan from the credit card only part of it could be attributed to the investment portion.

    Its like urinating into a bucket and then saying you will take the urine portion out and replace it with water! Would you drink it then?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    Just think it thru clearly step by step.

    Firstly you and the trust are separate people for tax purposes, say you = A, trust = B

    Now if A borrows money and gifts it to B. There interest would not be deductible for A as you cannot claim interest on a gift.

    If A borrows and then lends to B. A will be charged interest by the bank. If A then charges B interest at the same rate, or higher, then A should be able to claim the interest charged by his bank. But A will be receiving interest as income from B. So the net affect is A is charged the same as he receives, so no tax. B is paying interest to A on a loan, so B gets to claim this as a deduction, depending on the purpose of the borrowings.

    If A were to on lend the money to B with no interest being charged to B, then A could not claim any interest as there is no commercial reason to make a loss like this.

    If A were to let his property be used as security for B to borrow directly from the bank, then B should be able to borrow 100% and claim the interest, subject to the purpose of the borrowings.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    @terryw
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    You should probably have a loan agreement with your parents and also look at taking a mortgage over their property. There may be a slight chance of bankrutpcy in the future and you may wish to protect your investment. On the other hand if you go bankrupt, then this will still be your asset so you need to consider it carefully and speak to a lawyer.

    As for tax, i don't see any issues other that those Luke mentions.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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