Forum Replies Created
- emptyvessel wrote:Ahh, but if I had a DT, i wouldn't get the negative gearing and thus no positive cashflow. (Of course, I could borrow and then lend money to the trust, but I haven't found someone that can walk me through how this looks in 5,10,15 years.)
And HDT's appear to be a minefield for tax and bank lending.
I can only see a trust making sense for me under these circumstances;
1) Positive geared property (which is 5+ years away for me. Except if I buy in the US, which could happen sooner rather than later)
2) I intend to sell i the short-medium term. Which I don't. Long-term I don't want to either.
3) I move into a self-employed, business owner and/or a job where I have a reasonable chance of being sued.
4) I am an idiot –> No/poor/wrong liability insurance. Or not managing my properties correctly.
5) I become a developer. I don't and it falls into a similar CG category to (2).Other than that, trusts seem to be just a drain on time and cashflow due to the extra management time/cost. Which is a damn shame, because between absorbing Trust Magic (Dale GG), Chan & Naylor and Michael Yardney trust stories, I initially thought they were an absolute must. That's how the rich do it, right? Well, sort of, is the real truth. Most of them didn't start out that way. the trusts and fancy structures came later.
Hi EV
If you were to borrow and lend the money to the trust then you couldn't claim the interest. You would be onlending to the trust and the trust would claim the interest with the interest received by your self being income which would be offset by the interest paid by yourself = you nil, trust claims interest.
If you want to work it out just assume the trust is a person with no other income.
True you would not get any negative gearing benefit, personally anyway, by using a discretionary trust. But if your property is postive geared after tax back then it is very close to being fully cashflow positive as rents rise. Then you will start having the tax problems.
If you don't sell that means you are building up greater gains which means greater tax.
trusts work well for the self employed. PAYE pays get sued to, and often for unfortunate events or accidents.
Not sure about being an idiot. Insurance won't help in litigation very often.
Don't think trusts cost that much extra to run. (you forget to include land tax which can be another high cost of using a trust)Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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HI Michael
Are these ANZ/NAB LOCs and offset accounts completely separate, ie different account numbers for each?
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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What you say sounds reasonable to me. Keep it t arms length and commercial rates. make sure you run it by your accountant first though.
If only you had used a discretionary trust!
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Is your wife a joint owner of the property?
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Yeah, that guy really did go over board didn't he!
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Builders Of Most Expensive House On Sydney Harbour Go To War In Indonesia
http://www.andrew-drummond.com/view-story.php?sid=404
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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If your wife owns the properites with you it may be hard to her to pay herself!
Even if the wife doesn't own any properties with you it may not be possible to pay her.
see a recent case, Brown and Commissioner of Taxation [2010] AATA 829, http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/AATA/2010/829.html- Allan Brown (“the taxpayer”) was the owner of a rental property. He says he employed his wife to assist with the paperwork and other issues associated with the property during the 2006-2007 year of income. He claimed a deduction in respect of the wages he paid her and in respect of a large contribution to her superannuation. The Commissioner disallowed the deductions in the objection decision. The matter has now come before the Tribunal.
- I am not satisfied Mr Brown and his wife have discharged their obligation under s 14ZZK of the Taxation Administration Act 1953 (“the TAA”) to demonstrate that the Commissioner’s objection decision was excessive. The decision is therefore affirmed
It is a short judgment and worth a read. Maybe your accountant should read it too!
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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What Anthony says is true, but Tax is covered by Commonwealth Legislation such as the Income Tax Assessment Acts 1936 and 1997. This means the definition of spouse in this Act is the one to go by for tax reasons, :
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/itaa1997240/s995.1.html#spouse
"spouse" of an individual includes:
(a) another individual (whether of the same sex or a different sex) with whom the individual is in a relationship that is registered under a * State law or * Territory law prescribed for the purposes of section 22B of the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 as a kind of relationship prescribed for the purposes of that section; and
(b) another individual who, although not legally married to the individual, lives with the individual on a genuine domestic basis in a relationship as a couple.
===
Note that "genuine domestic basis in a relationship as a couple" is not defined.
Also note that s 118.179 covers the spouse having a different main residence and there is special treatment for "a spouse living permanently separately and apart from you"
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/itaa1997240/s118.170.htmlTerryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Email MeLawyer, Mortgage Broker and Tax Advisor (Sydney based but advising Aust wide) http://www.Structuring.com.au
Just remember investment loans are tax deductible, private loans are not. Deductibility depends on what the borrowed funds are used for.
So your aim should be to pay off a private loan first, and then start on paying down an investment loan after that.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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I dont' think Steve bought in a rural area. But residential areas in large regional towns.
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wade anthony wrote:Thanks for your thoughts, the theory behind the madness was to have the additional income coming in. Say if the rent would return approx. $180 p/w would the the return on the interest/tax be a better? I am open to suggestions if anyone has any.What about if you wanted to buy a house to live in later? You would have money tied up in an investment and would have to borrow it to get access. Not very tax effective.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Why pay off an investment loan ? This will mean you have a higher loan on your main residence and will pay higher interet which will not be claimable.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Montefanno wrote:bjsaust wrote:How did you come up with that interest figure? Is that your conservative "what if?" number? It seems to be over 9% p/a.Sorry, it should have read 'repayments', its the interest & principle on approx $190,000 over 30 years at 7.8% interest.
Why pay PI on an investment loan? If you are an accountant think about the tax implications.
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naughtyj wrote:Thanks. Kind of figured as much, but it never hurts to ask.Subsequent question: I'm figuring that property prices won't move upward much in the next 12 months much, and I will be getting a current 2011 valuation on the property in a few weeks.
Would that establish the basis for its "cost" value when I move out and use the difference between that and the final price as the CGT? Or would I simply use "sale price less original purchase place" x percentage of time it was rented?
You would need a valuation to be done, (s118.192 ITAA 1997)
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Catalyst wrote:While yield is very important, without CG you are not moving ahead.You are actually going backwards as inflation is around 3%!
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Yes, deposit = repaying the loan.
taking it out = new borrowings.Interest on borrowings will only be deductible if the money is used for investments.
If you reborrow the $12k you will contaminate your loan and create a mess like this guy https://www.propertyinvesting.com/forums/property-investing/help-needed/4336793?#comment-237756
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JO_Qld wrote:hi I couldn't find the attachment for the history of hybrid discretionary trusts to read through…not sure if I was looking in the right spot.I am trying to assess if we are best using this type of structure to purchase an IP and rent to ourselves at market rent. We run a small business and are about to pay our PPR off. I have been told this is a bad strategy for asset protection by my lawyer as we are in both directors on this company etc. We currently own two other IP's in a family trust, buy my accoutant suggested that I look into and talk to a lawyer again about the pros and cons of selling our PPR, releasing the much needed and comprised equity and purchasing a house in a trust structure and renting it out oursevles and utilising the negative gearing benefits (we are grouped for taxing purposes – trusts and company and could do the same with the new structure) or just renting a house from a third party (no keen on) and buying other a couple of other IP's and renting them out to third parties. Can anyone please help with advise on these options.
Jo look at the discussion and attachments at somersoft
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71494Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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Its messy and will be hard to apportion interest at tax time.
eg. You had a $100,000 loan. paid it down to $80,000 and then take $1000 out each month to live on. Only the interest on $80,000 is deductible. This would be easy to work out if it was IO, but being PI makes it much harder.
at month 1 your ratio is $80,000 borrowings for investment and $1,000 for private = about 99% claimable.
Interest is added to the loan, 99% of this may be claimable.at month 2 your ratio is $80,000 + $2,000. 98% may be claimable. But it is even harder to work out as you have to take into account the interest. – part of the money you borrowed, the $1,000, may have been used to pay the interest, so part of the interest on the extra borrowings may be deductible etc etc.
after several months this will be a real headache. whether a ATO auditor would be this meticulous I doubt it, but it is still best to avoid if possible.
I suggest any new borrowings for investment deposit should be set up with a separate loan, ie no redraw. The main loan should be changed to IO and the new property loan be IO as well. An offset account should be set up too. And you should leave CBA.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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I think you may find that bankruptcy is listed on your credit file for 8 years.
Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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If someone passes their main residence to a beneficiary under their will then sell it within 2 years it will generally be exempt from CGT.
s118.195
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/itaa1997240/s118.195.htmlIf it is not the main residence of the deceased or the beneficiary then s118.200 will apply
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/itaa1997240/s118.200.htmlIf a beneficiary wants to rent the house out then they are taken to have acquired the property at the date of death and to have acquired it at market value.
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