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  • Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Terryw wrote:
    Grreg wrote:
    Terry – I think you have nailed it. We do NOT want to use our SMSF to borrow. The SMSF is just contributing funds. I think I might not have been clear enough about that in my initial post.

    The plan would be that the SMSF simply contributes cash to the deal (through buying units in the unit trust). We would personally borrow from the banks in our own names to purchase our units in the trust. So it is like a JV.

    My concern is whether we can do this as we are all family. I believe there are complications about SMSF and related parties investing.

    Does that sound like a workable plan? Or are there still problems?

    Greg

    Should be doable.

    And Anthony from A4 Companies seems to know a lot about SMSF structures and investing.
    https://www.propertyinvesting.com/forums/legal-accounting/4347022#comment-284017

    I am a lawyer and could advise on the set up, but it is not something that I do everyday. But better to speak to Anthony I think.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Grreg wrote:
    Terry – I think you have nailed it. We do NOT want to use our SMSF to borrow. The SMSF is just contributing funds. I think I might not have been clear enough about that in my initial post.

    The plan would be that the SMSF simply contributes cash to the deal (through buying units in the unit trust). We would personally borrow from the banks in our own names to purchase our units in the trust. So it is like a JV.

    My concern is whether we can do this as we are all family. I believe there are complications about SMSF and related parties investing.

    Does that sound like a workable plan? Or are there still problems?

    Greg

    Should be doable.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    ChrisA1 wrote:
    Appreciate your comment here Terry.

    Could you please explain about reborrowing by setting up a new loan.

    I am aware that once I take the money out of the offset, the home loan increases. I took this as a cost of starting the IP journey until the IPs started revaluing. However thanks for the information that this money wouldn't be treated as deductible debt – I thought it would have been since the funds were only in the offset and the purpose of the money was for investment purposes?

    I am not wanting my PPOR revalued again as I have had the PPOR revalued twice as I paid the loan down and each time the bank allowed me equity but shrunk my loan so I didn't have the redraw funds available, if this makes sense….

    I have the feeling the bank will say …you again…. I suppose the reason why I am leaving the money in the offset is to keep my PPOR loan out of the mix going forward. I was wanting to view the funds in my offset account as 'savings' towards my IPs and keeping the funds in the offset to lower my PPOR loan in the interim.

    Appreciate your comments as I feel I am going down the wrong track with my thinking….

    Say you had a $300,000 loan with $100,000 saved in the offset.
    You would pay interest on only $200,000. At 6% = $12,000 pa approx
    The offset would save you $6,000 pa in interest.

    Then you decide to buy a new investment property. You have 2 choices
    1. Use the offset money for the deposit, or
    2. Borrow the full amount

    1. You withdraw $100,000 from the offset.
    Your loan on the main residence remains the same, but now you are paying interest on $300,000 so this will mean $18,000 pa in total. None of this will be deductible.

    2. You borrow $100,000 by setting up a new loan.
    This means you keep your $100k in the offset saving you interest, but you borrow another $100,000 for the investment.
    Therefore your main residence’s interest is still $12,000
    But your new investment property’s interest is $6,000 extra because you have borrowed this money.
    Your total annual tax deductions have been increased by $6000 pa by using the second method. This may mean an extra $2000 extra cash saved per year for 30 years….Compounding

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    ChrisA1 wrote:
    Hi Terry

    Just wondering about the other way. I am holding money in my PPOR offset account, which is currently reducing my PPOR loan until I use it down the track as a deposit for further IPs/investments. Since this money is in my PPOR offset, I assume it is simply called 'savings' and can be used as I like

    It will not be a good idea to use money in an offset on your home loan for investment deposits. This is because when you take the money out your interest on the home loan increases and this will not be deductible.

    Better to borrow the money out of equity. If no equity then best to pay down the home loan and then reborrow it by setting up a new loan.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    I would only pay down the loan if you have a main residence fully paid off. Otherwise you will be losing tax.

    And then if you have have a main residence paid off I would still rather use a 100% offset to store the cash as this will save you the same amount of interest but make the cash available for non investment purposes without affecting the tax deductibility of the loan.

    ie if you pay $50,000 off the loan and then need to buy a new car you may have to redraw (= borrow) from the loan and this will cause the loan to become a mixed purpose loan (part investment part personal) and it wll mean you won't be able to claim the interest on the amount redrawn – whereas the offset method could have avoided this totally.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    It might be fair to ask for a small increase, but will the tenant want to pay it?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Qlds007 wrote:
    I started doing Deposit Finance in 1996 and it was the foundation stone of our Vendor Finance business (FHOG Pty Ltd).

    Still very much alive and kicking some 17 years later.

    As long as the lvr is less than 90% you will get around the genuine savings problem with a few lenders / mortgage insurers although 1 of the insurers will allow a 5% gifted deposit.

    Cheers

    Yours in Finance

    FHOG Pty Ltd is a great name Richard and you had some great foresight to register it in time.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    I was knocked back for my first loan by the NAB. I didn't go and see anyone else, I just thought I couldn't get a loan and this delayed me investing for about 2 years. Later after I became a broker I realised I could have easily gotten a loan, even with the bank that knocked me back.

    That property has gone up in value about 5 times since then.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    The units of the unit trust which are held by the non SMSF entity could be used to raise capital. The units could be charged or used as security, but the SMSF owned units couldn't be mortgaged. But the SMSF could use a bare trust to borrow to acquire the units – but it would be very hard to find a lender willing to lend on this basis.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    You shouldn't be offering to pay more than the valuation I think.

    You are not legally obliged to continue so treat this as a brand new purchase. You normally wouldn't pay $10k above a valuation price so why do so now – even if you are getting a $9k grant.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    What about Nathan Birch's Blink Property?

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    THat is a big mistake. Very hard to forget about a $10k debt.

    Do you have a judgment against you? You can be bankrupted any moment so if someone knocks on your door asking for you by name pretend you are someone else and close the door.

    Because you can be bankrupted any moment I think it will be very unlikely you will find finance because no lender wants to lend you money only for you to go in bankruptcy

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    Yes, if done that way the business aspect may be ok. If you are in Sydney I may be able to advise.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    LC888 wrote:
    Another issue (never ending!). So, I took the line of credit (LOC) using my fully paid PPOR as the equity. As I was waiting for the line of credit to settle, I needed to pay the 10% deposit on the IP which I was going to use the LOC for. My broker told me that I can just pay it from my own cash and then reimburse myself once the LOC was settled. So, that's what I did. Unfortunately, after that, I found out from my tax accountant that if I reimburse myself, the interest on the amount would not be tax deductible as I have to pay the third party directly from the LOC in order to get tax deduction on the interest. Is this true? Can't I just provide the details of the transfer I made for the 10% deposit to prove that I used that money for the IP?

    Yes, your broker was incorrect and should not be providing you with tax advice. The accountant is correct.

    Interest is only deductible on money borrowed and used for investment purposes. You have paid cash for something. You cannot later replace this cash with borrowed money and claim the interest because you have completed the transaction. You cannot borrow from yourself.

    What you could have done is to borrow from a third party temporarily and then refinanced this loan with the LOC

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Profile photo of TerrywTerryw
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    LC888 wrote:
    Another question – is remortgaging the same as having a line of credit using my fully owned home as an equity? 

    Mortgaging is a common term used to describe borrowing money (mortgage actually means taking a charge over property).

    Obtaining a LOC is a form of borrowing.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    LC888 wrote:
    Thanks Dan.

    I've asked this question to my broker before and she said there's no such thing but today, my boss suggested the same thing again:

    Is it possible to remortgage my fully owned property in SA and use that money to pay for my property in Melbourne that I am currently living in? …which means my IP in SA would be on mortgage and I would fully own the property I'm currently living in, in Melbourne…

    Security of the loan doesn’t matter it is the purpose of the loan, ie where the money goes that counts. In this case you will be borrowing money for your new main residence so it is a private expense and not deductible.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    If a tenant injures themselves in the property they are likely to sue the owner of the property which will be the trustee. If the trustee gets a judment then they must pay the tenant out of the trust assets if the trust assets are not enough then the trustee's personal assets are at risk. This is why it is best to have a company as trustee.

    If you do something illegal or are criminally negligent then the company may not save you either. Directors of the company could be exposed.

    If you are the trustee then you could be bankrupted. If you had transferred assets to a different trust then these assets could be at risk of being clawed back depending how it was all done.

    I think it is generally preferrable to leave existing assets as they are and consider using a trust for future ones. Make sure you set up a discretionary trust in your will so that your spouse or children can inherit in a structure with asset protection and huge tax benefits…

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Better be prepared for some legal advice before starting. You would be breaching a few rules possibly if you set it up like that.

    You have to look at the sole purpose test – super is supposed to be solely for your retirement. Running a business of development may breach this rule.

    You can also only borrow to buy a single acquireable asset. So if your fund purchased the land it could not subsequently be mortgaged or used as security.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    Firewater. Very easy, but cumbersome. Work out how you are going to do it – gift, market value, undermarket value etc and then just fill in the relevant paperwork such as a transfer document from your names to the names of the trustee.

    Apply for a new loan, pay stamp duty and then complete the settlement.

    If it was your main residence before then maybe exempt from CGT. Full stamp duty would normally apply.

    But, why are you wanting to do this? Asset protection is not great, you will be up for CGT from the transfer date and you may have to pay land tax on something that otherwise wouldn’t be taxed.

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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    50/50 was just an example. Could be other amounts.

    It may also be possible to lend the SMSF money unsecured.

    or Have a unit trust set up and then you own some units and SMSF own the other. You could lend money to a bare trust of the SMSF and a charge could be taken over the units.Very

    complexx and you will need to spend a fair but on advice

    Terryw | Structuring Lawyers Pty Ltd / Loan Structuring Pty Ltd
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