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  • Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    hbbehrendorff wrote:
    doubledown trent wrote:
    I don't want to be the grammar police here, but….

    If you don't know the difference between LOOSE and LOSE,
    If you don't know the difference between THEIR and THERE,
    and you don't know how to use an apostrophe correctly,

    why would we trust any of your ironclad predictions on the economy??

    I'm sorry that my quickly blotted out 1000 word thesis on very broad economic fundamentals contained some bad grammar,  Obliviously I have been caught out for the fraud I am and no longer have any credibility

    Because the truth is I failed every grade past the 7th and didn't even complete year 11,  Also English and Art where always my worst two subjects,  I could never quite grasp them with adeptness others could…. wow,  If you could only see me attempt to draw a stick man,  Then that really would prove me to be wrong about my economic theory's

    Perhaps you could write your own 1000 word opinion ?…

    See, I have pondered writing much longer and in depth post,  But it would probably reach 5000+ words and I would be ridiculed for a few grammar mistakes so there is no point…

    Have to agree with DDT.

    Lack of spelling, grammar and punctuation will leave you unregarded. In other words; few will pay you much attention to your opinions and advice.

    Or, you'll be regarded but picked on for it.

    Fair? No. But that's the way it is.

    I don't bother with people who make no effort to present a post at least close to the standard that others can and do.

    There's spellchecker and thesaurus available.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    If you are investing for cashflow, then yes.

    If you are investing for cap growth – no-one knows. Look at the area; infrastructure, employment opportunities, amenities etc.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    Renovating and then selling "within a few months" has a few drawbacks:

    1. At the moment, unless you can buy a FHOB category house for well under market value (good luck with that) you may be in danger of buying, renovating and owning a property that has not gone up in value as much as the cost of the renos. The markets are very flat in many areas right now – other than FHOB property, but you won't buy something really cheap with such a feeding frenzy going on I'd say.

    There is a real danger of not getting back the cost of the renos from your sale price. Renos always take longer and cost more than you think they will. Trust me.

    2. If you sell the renoed property within 12 months, you will be taxed on 100% of the cap gain, at your marginal tax rate. If you sell after 12 months, you will be taxed on 50% of the cap gain, at your marginal tax rate.

    Don't know about stating the property is a PPoR and then selling it while living elsewhere to avoid CGT. This is an invitation to jail in my opinion. Not worth it.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    L.A Aussie wrote:
    gezzy wrote:
    L.A Aussie wrote:
    The other "con" is that you have no equity with 100% loans, and if something goes wrong at the start and you need to sell, you may have to sell at a significant loss.

    This wouldn't be the case though if you were lucky enough to purchase a property at a bargain price, well below market value, would it?

    Thanks for your reply, L.A Aussie

    It doesn't matter what the price of the IP is, it is either bought with cash and borrowings, or just borrowings, or just cash if you have enough.

    If it was valued at $200k and you could buy it for 80% of it's value, then yes, you would have some equity.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    gezzy wrote:
    L.A Aussie wrote:
    The other "con" is that you have no equity with 100% loans, and if something goes wrong at the start and you need to sell, you may have to sell at a significant loss.

    This wouldn't be the case though if you were lucky enough to purchase a property at a bargain price, well below market value, would it?

    Thanks for your reply, L.A Aussie

    It doesn't matter what the price of the IP is, it is either bought with cash and borrowings, or just borrowings, or just cash if you have enough.

    If it was valued at $200k and you could buy it for 80% of it's value, then yes, you would have some equity.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    Rhys_Roberts wrote:

    House prices tipped to jump sharply in the next three years

    Print

    Housing prices could increase by up to 22% during the next three years, according to a new survey, while the weekend's auction results continue to signal increasing confidence in the property market.

    The new BIS Shrapnel Residential Property Prospects 2009 to 2012 report says that "the conditions are ripe for a sustained recovery in residential property prices".

    "Low interest rates, solid growth in rents and housing shortages are evident in most markets. However, the current economic malaise will mean confidence will only recover slowly during 2009/10."

    The report claims Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide will record the largest price increases over the next three years at 19%. Growth in Brisbane, Hobart and Canberra is also expected, but Perth and Darwin are expected to experience weaker conditions due to lower spending in the natural resources market.

    The report estimates Sydney's median house price will rise from it current level of $530,000 to $630,000 by mid-2012. Melbourne's median will rise from $425,000 to $507,000, with Adelaide's to rise from $360,000 to $430,000.

    Brisbane's prices will rise from $391,000 to $455,000, Perth's will grow from $425,000 to $475,000 and prices in the Gold Coast, the Sunshine Coast and Cairns should rise by 14%.

    The report claims that most of the growth in the property market is occurring because of first home owners, but that as the economy recovers more investors will enter the market over the next 12 months.

    Meanwhile, auction results have recorded more gains over the weekend, giving weight to claims that the property market is beginning to see some recovery.

    In Melbourne, clearance rates rose above 80% again, leading Real Estate Institute of Victoria chief executive Enzo Raimondo to comment that "the recent succession of clearance rates in excess of 80% indicates improved confidence levels in the overall economy". The city recorded 448 sales totaling $263.83 million.

    In Sydney, the nation's largest property market, clearance rates reached 76%, with 191 properties selling at a total of $121.29 million.

    Brisbane clearance rates reached 71%, with 17 properties selling at a total of $8.5 million, while Adelaide saw just seven properties sold at a total of $2.6 million.

    God I hope so; all we do is keep buying. Haven't sold a single thing during all the D&G.

    The bigger the footprint, the bigger the gain. Yay!

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    FinSpec wrote:
    I'm over the whole "my car is flashier than yours" – so I ride a scooter now and pass all the Mercs & Porches on the way into the office while they're sitting still in traffic :)

    Even better;

    We gave up the commute.

    Years ago.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    gezzy wrote:
    Hello All,

    I am really eager to get into the investment property game and purchase an investment property while interest rates are still low, but saving up for a deposit seems to be taking forever (I know Steve McKnight recommends saving 20% as a deposit to avoid LMI etc) so I was just wondering if there was anybody out there who would recommend purchasing an IP using equity from their PPOR as a deposit. Is there anybody who has done this before? Is it a good idea or a bad idea? Could anybody please let me know the pros and cons? I'm reading a lot of books that keep saying "get into the game" but how can you when it seems to be a struggle to save the funds for a deposit?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers

    This is the only way we've ever done it with our IP's.

    It'll get you into IP sooner than saving for a cash deposit, but the only problem with it is you will be using 100% or more borrowings to fund the purchase.

    This will probably make the cashflow negative, and moreso than if you injected cash for the deposit.

    If you can support the neg cashflow this is ok, but the neg cashflow will have a drain on your servicability for the next one. In other words, you may need to wait longer to buy the next one than if you had injected cash as a deposit, and created a pos cashflow with which to decrease debt and improve both the equity and the cashflow/servicability.

    The other "con" is that you have no equity with 100% loans, and if somethinbg goes wrong at the start and you need to sell, you may have to sell at a significant loss.

    So, do it – but make sure you are in a position to be able to minimise debt quickly and get the LVR down to increase your safety margin.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    Terryw wrote:

    You are assuming Spud had kids while on the pension.

    What should he do if he kids came first and the pension second? Adopt a few kids out ???

    And what is a solicitor loan? They don't exist!

    True;  I did assume he had kids while being able-bodied and working.

    I still think having 5 kids in this day and age is impractical unless you are earning about $1 mill per year – that's if you want to have a decent lifestyle as well.

    Most people I've seen with this many kids struggle their whole lives. Maybe they are totally happy?

    I'd rather put a lot more quality time and quality life into 2 kids; take them on nice holidays, buy them decent things, put them in good schools.

    Our family doctor has 5 kids, but he has a practice, and his wife is a nurse who does agency work and earns a nice income without having to sacrifice too much time away from the kids. Their lifestyle is very nice.

    For the average earning Father, with a Wife who stays at home with the 5 kids……a life of less is guaranteed – unless there are generous Gubmint handouts.

    No thanks.

    It's a conscious decision. Some may say it is mercenary. I say it is about having the best life you can, and have kids in it.

    The tricky part is balancing the number of kids with the income.

    Most people don't think about this in my experience; they just plow ahead and pump 'em out. That's fine; but they invariably end up in the same boat as our mate Spud for one reason or another – they lose their job, or their health, or both etc.

    As for the "Solicitor Loans" these are like a second mortgage loan they provide from trust accounts. They do exist – not all solicitors do them, and they are higher interest rate. They are usually short -term. We have done two of them over the years. Work well for a short-term solution.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    Update;

    we still own the 1998 Musso and the 2000 Hyundai Accent.

    getting closer to buying something newer, but these two are still running well.

    Tough one; new(er) car(s), or new investment??

    Our mindset is the R.K one; use the pos cashflow from the ivestment to fund the doodad. Our cars would be tax deductible these days as we have a business now, but cars – it's another expense.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    Terryw wrote:
    Rhys_Roberts wrote:
    Off topic and an arguably offensive comment but I just can't help myself…

    If you are on a pension and can only afford a house worth 110K and only have 50k then…

    WHY DO YOU HAVE FIVE KIDS?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Rhys

    Are you implying that anyone on a pension shoudn't have kids?

    I must admit – I had the same thought as Rhys.

    They can have kids – but 5??

    Come on now; common-sense has to (but hasn't) prevail.

    Kids are a very expensive past time – even if you are trying not to spend money on them.

    Bottom line; if you can't afford them – don't have them.

    yeah, yeah – "it's my right to have them" and all that – doesn't mean you should have that many. Maybe one or two with your situation. Anyway, you've made the choice and now you are here.

    Spud, I would be looking to a solicitor loan, or one of those types of set-ups.

    Much higher interest of course, but if its only $10k, then the extra cost won't be overly high.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    Tony B wrote:

    Its not  "how many you have "  Its "how many you own ". I know many young & not so young people that spout they have several investment proterties. Having more then 1 property is not a sign or indicater of smart investing or wealth. As mentioned in Crashy post  "There is only one number that matters……..how long can I survive when (not IF) everything goes wrong?"

    I would rather have 1 investment property that I own, that makes a good C.G. and Income.  Than 10 that have 0 growth and are negativly geared. Thats only my opinion, Im sure there are many others that suit diffrent investers.

    Cheers

    T………..

    That all sounds great in theory, but think about how many people who can afford the time in their remaining lives who can pay off not only their PPoR (which is not an asset unless used to create more wealth) and ONE IP.

    Not many.

    It is seriously doubtful that you would own 10 properties and have none go up in value, or rents go up. They will all go up at different rates, but still up eventually, and so will rents.

    If you only have one IP worth $200k, and it doubles in value over 10 years and you pay nothing off the principle, you have a nett worth of $200k not including any cashflows (rents) and tax returns from it.

    But, if you have five $200k properties all running together simultaneously, and pay nothing off the principle, after 10 years your debt is still the same, but your nett worth is $1 mill.

    This is the power of leverage and how much exposure you can have to the market.

    For example; we own our PPoR, which came about through a previous PPoR going up in value very quickly, which we sold and the profit from it payed for our current one, but we have a number of IP's that are all still in debt. But our exposure to the market is such now that if the market goes up by even a couple of percent each year, the cap growth is more than our two average incomes combined. The debt is high, but our LVR is low  (54%) and the portfolio is pos cashflow, so the ratios are very solid.

    Of course, it's a double-edged sword; the more debt the more wealth, but you can lose more too.

    This is where cashflow management, property selection and LVR monitoring are critical to be successful.

    I'm not concerned by investment debt. I manage it closely, but I'm happy to take on millions of dollars of it because it will leverage the cap growth and the income over time.

    Many people want to get out of ALL debt. That is a saver mentality. Nothing wrong with that, but it is a very slow way to get rich.

    You want to clear away any consumer debt for sure, but learn to take on investment debt in a safe, secure manner.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    Tony B wrote:

    Its not  "how many you have "  Its "how many you own ". I know many young & not so young people that spout they have several investment proterties. Having more then 1 property is not a sign or indicater of smart investing or wealth. As mentioned in Crashy post  "There is only one number that matters……..how long can I survive when (not IF) everything goes wrong?"

    I would rather have 1 investment property that I own, that makes a good C.G. and Income.  Than 10 that have 0 growth and are negativly geared. Thats only my opinion, Im sure there are many others that suit diffrent investers.

    Cheers

    T………..

    That all sounds great in theory, but think about how many people who can afford the time in their remaining lives who can pay off not only their PPoR (which is not an asset unless used to create more wealth) and ONE IP.

    Not many.

    it is seriously doubtful that you would own 10 properties and have none go up in value, or rents go up. They will all go up at different rates, but still up eventually, and so will rents.

    Also, if you only have one IP worth $200k, and it doubles in value over 10 years and you pay nothing off the principle, you have a nett worth of $200k not including any cashflows (rents) and tax returns from it.

    But, if you have five $200k properties all running together simultaneously, and pay nothing off the principle, after 10 years your debt is still the same, but your nett worth is $1 mill.

    This is the power of leverage and how much exposure you can have to the market.

    Of course, it's a double-edged sword; the more debt the more welth, but you can lose more too.

    This is where cashflow management, property selection and LVR monitoring are critical to be successful.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    It depends where your financial position is, and what you are invested in, and what your level of experience and education is.

    Warren Buffet only invests in businesses. Some of these businesses have shares though, and he also owns a very successful stock fund. But the stock market crash of late is of little concern to him really, as his businesses are all solid performers and earn good incomes.

    And stock markets are not property markets, and there are many different types of property to buy. A cheaper-end property is way less affected by downturns as there are many more renters and buyers for them. Higher-end properties are more likely to be bought by higher income earners who often don't have the financial intelligence to match their income, therefore these properties are more prone to larger price fluctuations when their lack of financial intelligence gets them into trouble during times like this. They pay too much when the booms are on, and sell low when their world crashes. Sad, but very common.

    Most stock market investors are not investors, but people who buy managed funds or mutual funds. They hand over their cash to fund managers, hoping for the values to go up. If the stock market drops, they are creamed. Any D&G in the market is bad news for these people – the majority of stock market investors. It's sad.

    But I pay no attention to their situation and the reporting on it by the wider media; which is geared towards the wider market of "investors" who are getting slaughtered.

    if you are new to property, and are highly geared and neg cashflowed; this is a dangerous time should something go wrong such as injury, job loss etc. I wouldn't be selling, but I'd be a bit concerned and reducing debt like crazy, and don't buy higher-end and/or marginal speculative properties like Off The Plan deals.

    If you are more established, have lower LVR's and good cashflows, then it is a great buying window about to open up.

    Add to that dropping rates and rising rents, and you have a lovely situation – even when the media is screaming death to all. It's actually in our favour the more they scream.

    This is me right now, so my mindset is a happy one in this climate; I can buy low and still not have LVR or cashflow problems.

    I'm dusting off the cheque book.

    So, get yourselves more educated, see the opportunity in this climate rather than everyone elses' fear, go out and make some money.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    crashy wrote:
    I agree that there are those who walk the walk and those who only talk the talk. you have to admire those who have built a large portfolio and dont mind sharing how they did it.

    making money is easy. keeping it is the hard part.

    I talked to a guy who had $3m worth of property leading into the early 90's recession.  he explained how things slowly got worse for him, cashflow drying up day by day even though he sold property (in a falling market) quickly, finally ending up $500k in debt with no properties left.

    I wonder how many people here realise just how easy it can happen? There is only one number that matters……..how long can I survive when (not IF) everything goes wrong?

    The most important factor is cashflow.

    If I had $50mill worth of property right now, and it was cashflow positive, I wouldn't care if it dropped in value by half as the income keeps it afloat until the values return – as they always do.

    This is much like the share market currently; many businesses have dropped in value, but the core business is still very profitable ( ANZ BANK for example) so it will steam along, making money and staying afloat until the sentiment turns and the value goes up. It's a good time to buy their shares pretty soon methinks.

    Someone who is highly geared and neg cashflowed with this level of property portfolio ($50 mill) would have cause for concern, however the latest rate drops with more to come, plus the increasing rents eases the bottom line a bit.

    The only prob with dropping values is it slows down further acquisitions in the near future.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    crashy wrote:
    I agree that there are those who walk the walk and those who only talk the talk. you have to admire those who have built a large portfolio and dont mind sharing how they did it.

    making money is easy. keeping it is the hard part.

    I talked to a guy who had $3m worth of property leading into the early 90's recession.  he explained how things slowly got worse for him, cashflow drying up day by day even though he sold property (in a falling market) quickly, finally ending up $500k in debt with no properties left.

    I wonder how many people here realise just how easy it can happen? There is only one number that matters……..how long can I survive when (not IF) everything goes wrong?

    The most important factor is cashflow.

    If I had $50mill worth of property right now, and it was cashflow positive, I wouldn't care if it dropped in value by half as the income keeps it afloat until the values return – as they always do.

    Someone who is highly geared and neg cashflowed with this level of portfolio would have cause for concern, however the latest rate drops with more to come, plus the increasing rents eases the bottom line a bit.

    The only prob with dropping values is it slows down further acquisitions in the near future.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    There is no income or tax advantages from raw land.

    The holding costs are all directly out of your pocket.

    You would be better off to buy a similarly priced block (or slightly more expensive) with an older house on it, which may be needing a bit of a spruce up, which you could do much of yourself if you have the inclination, and then rent it out and get the tax breaks for.

    That way, you will minimise your holding costs a fair bit.

    If the house is built after 1987, the tax breaks are even better as you can depreciate the entire building, fixtures and fittings.

    If you can only affors the land, and can handle the repayments, then do that.

    Finance for property in smaller towns can be harder, so talk to one of the excellent Mortgage Brokers here on this site for more advice.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    harb wrote:
    ummester wrote:
    Harb, where have you been?

    Looking at buying some more houses , where else ? Thanks to that stupid FHOG increase one of my offers got knocked back  and the place sold to a FHB for full asking price.

    I recon there is sweet FA we can do about it now, it is a natural cycle, like property devaluations:)

    Yep , been happening since the beginning long before we got down from the trees so it couldn't be our fault.
    And I know for a fact that the rising sea level story is a crock  of shit, don't need no satellites either.  I've got a couple of S/steel rods into the retaining wall to measure tide levels and its been the same for 20 years now. Unless the concrete wall is expanding at the same rate with the sea level.

    Off topic, but had to add my observation on Harb's comment about rising water levels.

    I have been visiting the Mornington Peninsula since I was about 7 years old (I'm now 47).

    We now live in Dromana, not far from the pier.

    The water level has not risen 1mm on the pier pylons in all that time, and the water is as cold as ever. It does get slightly warm in summer for a short time though – about Feb.

    Think about this; the earth's surface is 80% covered by water. That's just the area it covers; it doesn't factor in the volume and depth.

    Or, put another way; only 20% of the earth's surface is land.

    Part of that 20% is the two poles – north and south, and over their respective summers, they each lose about 1/3rd of their ice.

    It'd take a very, very big ice melt to even nudge the water level.

    Profile photo of L.A AussieL.A Aussie
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    harb wrote:
    Where is the latest cut taking us back to, 5 years ago ? Wait another month and it 'll be back to 7 years ago.
    How is your landlord doing, could you say hello from me and ask him if he wouldn't mind passing that rate cut to you so your rent go back to what you were paying 5 years ago. I'm sure he'll agree to it.

    Quote:
    So I'm not excited by the rate reduction.

    No , I guess you wouldn't be. Probably even less excited next month after another rate cut if your TD expires soon and goes from 8.5% down to 4%.

    Just on that note; we got another rate cut last Tues, and one of our tenants just signed another lease today with an increase in the rent.

    Am I laughing like a fat spider or what?

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    foundation wrote:

    I'm not an investing expert. But to ignore the jibes and answer the question, it's because they're pretty. And shiny. And heavy. But mostly pretty.

    And because they are a store of real value, of real wealth (as they are the product of effort+energy and scarce) whereas paper money is intrinsically worthless. So my aim is to over the long term hold 10% of my assets in precious metals. As I said earlier, I'm all for holding real assets. Sure, in a general deflation their dollar value would fall and their income/yield would fall, but they would maintain their real value over time. But I wouldn't for a second consider borrowing money to buy real assets.

    I'll happily admit that there is a slim chance that the deflation will be temporary and not become entrenched as it did in Japan. In that case it would possibly be followed by a period of high inflation. If signs point to that outcome, I'll change tack. But if not, I'll keep doing what I do.

    Cheers, F. [cowboy2]

    Can't see how this strategy will get you far and soon?

    It sounds like you are using cash, to buy silver coins?

    The cash is either earned, or it is the result of liquidating other assets. So now you have silver coins that have no income, using unleveraged funds to buy them, therefore your exposure to them would be lower, and with no income from them. That sounds painfully slow, albeit a very safe place to park money.

    What do you call a "real asset"?

    My interpretation of this is something that pays you an income, and increases in value, and has tax advantages as well.

    It doesn't necessarily need to have all three, but it needs to have two out of three – it needs to have income, and tax advantages.

    For example; a business can have income, tax advantages and not go up in value at all. If the income is good enough, then it is a solid asset that puts money in your pocket; it is a "real asset".

    We all know (if you've been alive long enough) that in the longer term property will always go up, it has an income, and it is tax advantaged.

    So, to me, this is a real asset, and even if the funds used to buy it are borrowed (as is the case with a business) then as long as the income is greater than the outgoings, it puts money in your pocket and is therefore a real asset, even though it's value might be stagnant for a few years.

    The excess funds, if reinvested back into the property or business in the short and medium term, will increase leverage, profit, nett returns and cashflow. This accelerates the process to do it all again, snowballing the result.

    Of course, the prudent investor monitors LVR's and cashflows constantly for safety.

    This surely has to be better than raiding the piggy bank to buy a few silver coins to stick in the drawer for 20 years, and budget priced shares, using very little leverage?

    Or are your precious metal stocks via some sort of share package? So, basically; you are pretty much only in shares, with no leverage at all?

    Not saying it's wrong, but jeez, it's a snail crawl and can be done much better and quite safely – even in this climate – with some borrowed funds.

    Your strategy sounds like that of a "saver" – level 2 investing. I think all of us here are a bit above this level by now F.

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