Forum Replies Created
Hi Sellmyhouse,
It's an interesting scenario. We recently completed a similar project in Malvern East in Victoria.
They can be quite tricky, depending on the existing conditions of the site.
Where is the property located?
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All the best,
Breece
G'day Oscar,
Great work sharing this info with the forum.
It looks like a great site for you.
It would be great to catch up for a coffee when you've got a bit of time.
For now though, keep the wind in your sails while the Autumn sun is still shining.
All the best,
Breece
Another reason we should be encouraging infill development…
A Tale of Two Melbournes
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/10b-price-tag-to-service-citys-growth-areas-20130212-2eb62.html
Hi SmartCube,
The first question I would ask is "for what purpose?"
Do you intend to live a simple life, close to schools, an activity centre with shops and amenities for you and your family to enjoy?
Or are you looking to develop this property into 2-3 townhouses?
Point Cook has some advantages from a cost and amenity perspective, however there are very few opportunities to further subdivide the recently developed areas in and around PC.
Knox.. well Knox is another story when it comes to Town Planning. Lovely spot but they are doing everything in their power to avoid a gentle density increase.
The South East corridor has some benefits, from established communities, schools and activity centres, as well as reasonable public transport into town for you and your wife.
Consider your primary motivation and spend some time getting familiar with the areas as you narrow down your search.
Best of luck!
Breece
Darryl!
It's great to put a face to a name! (You'll see I'm a bit slow with joining the dots here).
I wrote the Melbourne section in that article, but I thought yours was well researched, concise and informative.
Do you mind if I refer our clients to you when we are contacted about projects in Qld?
Have a great day, keep up the excellent work.
All the best,
Breece
Good point there Catalyst, good luck with your renovations!
Your comment reminds me of Rumsfeld's famous quote:
"There are known knowns;
there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns;
that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns
– the ones we don’t know we don’t know."
All the best,
Breece
Good point Darryl,
I hadn't considered the benefits or advantage of our PI insurance over an individual's position.
Which leads to another question..
What factors influence your choice of one professional over another? – Is it purely on cost? Results? 'The vibe?'
When we established our practice, we were fortunate to have access to one of the 'Big Four' Accounting firms. The added value we have received from this relationship far outweighs the additional cost involved.
Thanks Darryl, happy Australia Day!
All the best,
Breece
Hi bnd,
The Strategic Planning unit in a Council deals with Planning Scheme Amendments (rezonings), Urban Design Frameworks, Structure Plans.
You need to contact the Statutory Planning Department to discuss the redevelopment of your property.
(Sorry to nit-pick everyone, but it will save lots of time by not having to explain your story to the wrong person, then repeat it).
To respond to some of your questions bnd, please see below:
1. Will 3 units fit on 570sqm or are we better off building 2 generous sized? (I think we'd make better money off 3?)
No one will be able to confidently answer this until you have carried out a Property Development Assessment by a professional.
From experience, I can tell you that Keon Park (and many other suburbs in Darebin) are impacted by Single Dwelling Covenants, with the beneficiaries in some cases extending out into the hundreds due to the historical application of covenants during the initial subdivision of land in the northern suburbs.
– Ensure you ask the right questions and get detailed answers before you commit to anything.
– Understand what you want and have a plan.
– Understand the context you are working in – from the local planning controls to re-sales/rental income.
– Have an understanding of the process, even if someone else manages your project.
– Budget for $1,500/m2 delivery costs. (This includes all planning, design, and build costs)
– Get good advice early. The profits are in the detail.
– Ensure you have a sound team with the relevant expertise at hand.
– Get the right structure in place to minimise tax.
2. Can we look at having the weatherboard house leased out for another 12 months while we get the building started on the first one or 2 units? or is it too much headache, or will it not even save us on costs?
Plan for this early. Expect your Town Planning and Design stages to take 6-8 months before you commence site works.
Remember, you need to allow for concept plans, the planning application, working drawings, specifications, planning and building approvals, and any contingencies due to site specific controls.
It may be that from Day 1, you allow for a 12 month lease on the existing dwelling.
It's all about timing your project effectively.
3. Where could we possibly look at selling the weatherboard house – this would save on demolishing costs? (is it worth it?)
There are a number of demolition companies in Melbourne who recycle components of old houses. However, if the property is in good condition and well sited on the block, I would consider options which include retention of this dwelling.
4. Is a larger company, i.e. carlise homes, vs private builder the way to go, given the fact our budget is small? ( Looking at maybe less than 150k each unit)
This is entirely dependent on what your development priorities are.
Before you do anything, do your due diligence and get a Property Development Assessment completed.
This will provide you with your Development Options, Construction costs, Planning and Design costs, Feasibility of options, and your financial strategy. All of these considerations are driven by your budget.
We are currently building a 3 bedroom townhouse in Glenroy on a construction budget of $165,000. Our client in that scenario prioritised cost over size, and finish. This was decided after analysing the information contained within his Property Development Assessement (PDA).
Given the site information you have provided, and from experience in that area, I would consider your priorities would be to ensure you can achieve your development goals (2 or 3 units), within the shortest possible timeframe, within your budget.
Similar to our Glenroy client, I would suggest you are driven by cost. Is this correct?
So who is better suited to your needs?
Follow the advice above and get a strong team around you with the relevant experience. You will know who is best suited once you have assessed each company against your development plan.
5. We were thinking of selling maybe 2 and keeping 1 on rent.
It is good to settle on this plan early in the development process.
As discussed above, plan early and have the right structure in place to minimise tax.
6. Typically how long may it take from time of planning, council, to selling these newly built units?
You will find a range of answers to this question from different sources.
Typically for your scenario it should take 6-8 months in the planning stage and 6-9 months in the construction stage.
It is not possible to give a firm timeframe this early in the process. There are too many variables that are yet to be resolved.
I hope this information assists you with your project. I hope it is an enjoyable and rewarding experience.
You will learn so much from your first project. Be prepared to ask hard questions of your team and ensure they take the time to explain the process, step by step.
All the best,
Breece
Gotta love a good Celtic accent Bosco!
Your new Town Planner friend was referring to Clause 55, which is the Victorian Town Planning control which dictates the requirements for multi-unit development.
The planner at Knox raises a good point about precedent. Each site needs to be assessed on its merits, and just because there's several examples of multi-unit development in your part of Wantirna South, doesn't mean you'll get a free ride through Council.
Like I said, you've got a tricky site with some complex Local Policies (Clause 21 and Clause 22).
We're happy to assess what you can and cannot achieve on this site. If you'd like more information, please call Heather or Caroline on (03) 9600 4541 or visit our website and order a Property Development Assessment (PDA). This is the first step in our 7 Step process. We can guide you through from Assessment to Realising the profit in your development.
Good luck with your project, make sure you do your due diligence and feasibility before committing to anything or anyone.
All the best,
Breece
AlBosco,
No worries, that's what we're all here for. Sharing info and helping each other out.
Some quick replies because it's past my bedtime…
1. The Knox Public Open Space contribution is 8.5% of the site value, or 8.5% of the land, or a combination of both.
It's truly shocking on a number of levels.
2. I breifly reviewed your site location in Aisbett Ave. There is some multi-unit development in the immediate area, but due care would need to be taken when considering this site for development given the R3Z and the GS3 Neighbourhood Character precinct. From experience, I can reliably inform you that the Neighbourhood Character policy is rather tricky, so please exercise caution. Many good folks have gone confidently before you…
3. If the existing dwelling is in good condition and doesn't impede the proposed additional development, we generally encourage our clients to retain it and renovate it as part of the development.
Why knock down a perfectly good house and lose $200k of potential profit on its replacement?
4. Your Plan A is much better than Plan B.
5. I would strongly encourage you to seek professional advice at this point to complete a Property Development Assessment. There are plenty of excellent contributors to these forums, so please seek out either myself or one of the other Town Planners who contribute to PropertyInvesting.com
All the best Al,
Breece
Hi AlBosco and Dwolf,
Dwolf raises an excellent point with the Public Open Space Contribution levy for Knox City Council.
We have recently completed a number of Property Development Assessments for clients in Knox. One was for a couple who have a 1,300m2 property in Boronia and another two PDAs were for a client who was looking to acquire a development site in Bayswater.
To be blunt: Knox is horrific for multi-unit development on a number of fronts.
Firstly, Dwolf's point applies to most subdivisions in Knox, however the majority of 2-lot subdivisions are exempt from this Public Open Contribution only if Knox council considers it unlikely that each lot will be further subdivided.
Due Diligence here is critical.
Every Property Development Assessment we have completed in Knox over the past 6 months has highlighted significant restrictions on multi-unit development. In each case, the PDA saved the client from proceeding with a development that would never gain Council support. This saved each client thousands.
Sometimes, the better part of valour is discretion.
I would also point out the excessive application of the R3Z in Knox.
A word of warning to potential developers… The Residential 3 Zone is a silent killer. It provides Council with the legislative justification to refuse multi-unit development in Knox, primarily on Neighbourhood Character and Density grounds.
The Victorian State Government explicitly encourages infill development as a sustainable design solution to increasing population growth, yet Knox City Council have their own ideas.
NIMBYism is soooo 2002.
Good luck with your Development,
Breece
We strongly recommend our clients use the services of Stacey Surveying, as we have found Ash to be competitive on price and simply the best surveyor when it comes to attention to detail.
I cannot speak highly enough of his professionalism and drive to deliver the best service possible. It has been wonderful to watch Ash's business grow.
Here is an example of his recent work for our five townhouse project in Abbotsford. This is called a Feature & Level Survey and Site Analysis: http://pillarandpost.com.au/subdivision/stacey-surveying-feature-and-level-survey/
Ash's prices beat not just his competitors, but the recommended price set by The Institute of Surveyors.
As a developer, I recommend you build a strong team of knowledgeable consultants for small-lot development sites. There are too many horror stories of developers cutting corners or choosing to use the cheapest shyster in the market.
Thanks for the support Ash. I'm proud of our developing relationship as we continue to work closely to deliver quality services to our valued clients.
All the best,
Breece
G'day Ash and everyone,
Ash, your comment about slowing/stopping subdivision in the inner ring of suburbs is a bit off the mark, the proposed zone known as the Residential Growth Zone is the one that will be applied broadly in the inner suburbs, close to Activity Centres, train stations and other areas suitable for increased housing activity.
We can expect a higher density of development in the inner suburbs (notwithstanding the protections given to Heritage precincts), with a mixture of townhouses and apartments with underground car parking. These new developments will generally be around three storeys in height.
Have a look at this link for more.
I am only correcting you Ash in order to allay the fears of those people who own properties or considering buying in these areas.
I certainly mean no offence in this comment, you're an excellent contributor on here and our land surveyor of choice.
The changes to the residential planning controls are the biggest reform to planning in over thirty years, and include three newly formed residential zones. The zones will result in stricter restrictions in residential areas that require urban preservation. Fewer restrictions, including higher building heights and more housing diversity (and density), are proposed in appropriate locations near activity centres.
Given its impact on how land may be developed, concerns have already been raised on how these changes may impact current and proposed building projects. However, considering the early stage of these planning scheme changes, it remains unclear what effects the amendments will have at specific properties, or even the timeframes in which they may be implemented.
The Planning Minister, Matthew Guy has stated that zoning boundaries will be at the discretion of local councils, ultimately determined by the community who will ‘inform which zone best fits where’. Whilst we're seeing a lot of announcements at the moment around a new Metro Strategy, the ground work for the implementation of the new zones is only just beginning.
We expect these new zones to be adopting in the next 12-18 months. As Ash states above, it's best to seek advice from a specialist in the early stages, even if it's just to get an Property Development Assessment and Due Diligence completed on your site to gain a clear understanding of your best way forward.
All the best,
Breece
Hi everyone, what a dispersed group we are!
This is a great way to stay connected and learn from each other.
I'm really enjoying this new site layout and all the functions!
I'm very fortunate to live in Albert Park, Victoria in a small townhouse with my lovely partner.
All the best,
Breece
Hi Simone,
Just looking at your calculations from a purely Town Planning perspective, you may want to get some more accurate price ranges for your development.
$15k for plans and permits is incredibly ambitious. (Remember you will need more than just a Planner.. You will also need a surveyor and architect/draftsman as the bare minimum)
Without knowing your site specific issues, there is no way of knowing what you’re up against.
A good Town Planner will help you assess the application process in a more holistic fashion. For example, do you have significant trees on site? You might need an Arborist. What about Cultural Heritage? We might need to guide you towards a Heritage advisor.
Have you got a reliable surveyor? An Architect/Draftsman you can trust?Contact some local town planners, architects and surveyors in your city. They will happily give you the advice you need.
All the best with your development,
BreeceHi The Pups,
We were actually talking about this situation the other day in the office. The way we see it, there are several doors that a client can enter through to commence their development. You’ve correctly identified a Land surveyor, Town planning consultant or an Architect as a logical first step.
If you prefer to do it yourself, most Council’s will take the time to give you as much basic info as they can.There’s are a couple of helpful professionals on here such as ChristianB and Ashley that will gladly help you. My company provides these services but I’m not here touting for business.
All the best with your development.
Breece
I would also recommend reviewing your financial position and consider all of your options.
Without knowing the location or planning controls for this site, it is difficult to give specific advice. However, in many cases a 900sqm block in Melbourne’s middle suburbs can be readily subdivided into. 2, 3, or 4 lots.
By getting a specialist to complete a Preliminary Development Assessment you will be in a strong position to make a decision on what is best for that particular site. These are inexpensive and we recommend our clients get them done as a matter of course before embarking on the Strategy and Concept Plan steps.All the best with your development,
BreeceHi everyone,
Ashley, as always your information provided is very helpful. I appreciate the time you take on this forum.We’ve found a lot of people coming to us with queries about the distinction between a straight subdivision of land versus a multi-unit development application. The obvious difference is that one cuts up the land whilst the other cuts up the land whilst providing for the development of the land. I’ve found both Ashley and ChristianB from this forum to be very helpful in assisting people get on the right track.
I have reviewed the material provided in the document Ashley attached above and would add some comments to build upon our lessons learnt. I’m hoping this will spark a discussion between the different disciplines of planning/architecture/surveying/engineering – and I fully encourage that!
This brings up an excellent point about “hidden costs”. These costs only remain “hidden” if you don’t know where to find them!
In Stage 1 under this process, the town planning fees can be variable based on the complexity of the lot and the specific planning controls that exist. Engaging with Council or one of the professionals listed above very early on in the process can save a lot of time and energy down the track. We encourage potential purchasers and new clients with existing properties to complete a Property Development Assessment as the first step in our process. This gives everyone certainty about the feasibility, costs and timeframes involved.
The subdivision process can be carried out concurrently with the Town Planning Permit process for Multi-unit Developments. This involves the additional step of engaging an Architect early on to work with your Land Surveyor and Town Planner to ensure the project is both feasible and financially viable. By drawing on these three disciplines you will arm yourself with the right information to get underway.
The document Ashley refers to above is based on a subdivision application in Logan City Council in SE QLD. Obviously there are locational dependent variations, but the principles described remain the same.
An example of these variations can be found in the Victorian Planning Provisions where we have what is known as a ‘Development Contributions Plan Overlay’. This overlay is usually placed over residential land in areas where Council require expensive capital works programs in order to improve the amenity and facilities through upgrades to roads/drainage or the provision of Community facilities such as community centres or pavilions in public open space. One of our clients last week found themselves covered by this particular overlay, and was able to factor in the $18,000 contribution for drainage works into their feasibility. It’s always best to complete your due diligence to find out what planning controls exist over your next development site. (Please never rely on the word of the Real Estate Agent…)
As always, seek good advice early, and work with your team to get the best outcome possible.
Merry Christmas everyone!
All the best,
BreeceNo worries Merf,
Hopefully a few other forum members will be able to assist you with their own experiences.
Cheers,
BreeceHi quickchick and Merf,
I know this particular property very well.For all users of the forum, herein lies the danger of our variously different State based planning legislation. They’re all utterly different!
What is true in Queensland isn’t necessarily so down here in Victoria.This is where it’s usually beneficial to engage a Town Planner to assess your site feasibility against the site specific planning controls.
Here in Victoria, there are no planning controls that limits dual occ development in the Residential 1 Zone to a specific minimum lot sizes.
The 300sqm rule of thumb is just a rule of thumb… And rules are made to be interpreted in different ways. It’s not uncommon nowadays to see three multi-unit developments with average lot sizes of 160-180sqm. (By the way, that doesn’t make it a new rule of thumb!)
Merf’s block is 570sqm. With the right design response the proposed architect Merf has engaged will design two dwellings that fit well into the site context. With a thorough planning report that assesses the proposed development against the Design response, Site and Neighbourhood description, the relevant State and Local planning policies, Particular provisions, zone and overlay controls, and the requirements of Clause 55 (ResCode), Merf will successfully gain a town planning permit from Kingston Council.QuickChick makes a good point about liaising with local builders early in the process. Merf is fortunate that his proposed Architect has a proven track record and that he designs quality buildings that can be readily built to specification. (PM me for details).
Unfortunately when clients try to cut corners and use a cheap bottom-end Draftsman or Architect, it costs them valuable time and money. There are too many real-life horror stories to risk it.
So you might save $10k at the start of the project by not using a mid-level (e.g.) “XYZ Architects”.. When, by the end of the project your decision to engage (e.g) “ABC Drafting” has cost you at every turn, from the Town Planner who asks for design changes to meet compliance (Time/Money), the Councfurther requests further information (Time/Money), the building surveyor who won’t sign off on the building permit without additional details (Time/Money), to the builder who can’t read the working drawings and either makes errors or takes an additional 2 weeks on site…(Time/Money)
From personal experience, I can assure you it’s a slippery slope. Something about monkeys and peanuts.So, what’s the moral of this story?
Seek the right advice early in the process and save yourself time and money.All the best,
Breece
