Posts in the Kiwi Property Forum

Please note: Posts is this forum are made by investors of varying experience and ability.

It is strongly recommended that investors seek the services of a professional paid adviser when seeking specific advice to their circumstances.

Don't the words "professional" and "paid" mean much the same thing? And if they don't what would be wrong with having a professional unpaid adviser ie if one's uncle was a tax specialist but chose not to charge his niece/nephew for the advise he rendered would it be any less worthwhile?
Julian2

Professional is someone who is qualified. Paid could be a shonky guy who presents himself as a professional.

In any case, a "qualified" professional is liable whenever they give advice (pair or unpaid) if it is foreseeable that the person will act on their advice.

Talking to the general public (like seminars or online forums) is usually an exception.

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The forumite formally known as Big Rob

Hi admin,

Shouldn't this 'disclaimer' post be a sticky?

Derek
derekjones1@bigpond.com

Property Investment Support Available.

Qualify, schmollify.
Tell that to Bob Dylan, the beatles, Jimi Hendrix, and, uhm, Jessica Simpson.

"where's your music degree, Bob?'

Steve, death by disclaimer! I geddit though.

Qualifications are for EMPLOYEES remember, not entrepreneurs and investors.

Sure, use an accountant, a lawyer, a building inspector, but don't get investment advice from them. And financial advisors? They only know what they know and they will probably 'advise' you to invest in something where they can make a big commission.

So... in the end there is no advice, because YOU are the investor, not your advisors. it's your job to make your investments fruitful so you can EMPLOY your advisors. (now do you geddit?)

NZ Investor and Bird Dog

Mini, I disagree with everything you just said. How is an "Investor" supposed to make their investments "fruitful" if they don't know what is out there???

Following the sheep will only lead you to the slaughter house. Most unsophisticated investors are followers!

I have one policy I try to stick to... if everyone else is doing it, I DON'T!!!

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The forumite formally known as Big Rob

Before you dig the disagreeing hole too deeply,
let me put it another way:

what 'professionals' do you consult (if any) to make your investment decisions? (with the assumption from your post that you consider yourself a "sophisticated investor" - and apologies in advance if I am out of line with this assumption)

also, what 'professionals' do the 'sheep' (sic) consult to make their investment decisions?
(if different from yours)

NZ Investor and Bird Dog

I consult professionals such as solicitors and accountants and financial planners when I need their advice.

If I want a property, I go to real estate agents. I certainly don't depend on people who call themselves "bird dogs" unless they hold a qualification to do what they do.

I also do a LOT of research and learn things I am interested in or contact the source and discuss the ins and outs with them before I consider what position I may want to take.

Regarding making my decision, I do that myself. All I seek from professionals is information. If I make a mistake based on the information I collected, I cannot blame anyone else.

The 'sheep' don't usually consult any professionals. They do things that they read in a paper or on a property website or a friend or unqualified person told them.

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The forumite formally known as Big Rob

back on track here!

Hi Steve,

Just wanted to add my thanks for finally adding a forum specifically for people interested in NZ investing.

It will make things a lot easier for all, rather than being mixed with "General Property".

Cheers,

Del

“I certainly don't depend on people who call themselves "bird dogs" unless they hold a qualification to do what they do.”

"If I want a property, I go to real estate agents. I certainly don't depend on people who call themselves "bird dogs" unless they hold a qualification to do what they do."

>Some of my best deals have come from people who were "unqualified" like a deal that returns 155% CoCR/ 13%Gross. I've got another two going through someone who is totally and utterly unqualified and my return on those will be $300 per week positive cashflow, for perhaps under $12K down.

" I consult professionals such as solicitors and accountants and financial planners"

>And when investing in property when do you go to get advice from a financial planner? They know nothing about property... Actually they do know one thing, they know they don't get a commission for any advice (because they haven’t sold you anything).

"Following the sheep will only lead you to the slaughter house. Most unsophisticated investors are followers!"

>In most other investments there are allot more sheep. The salesmen (aka financial planners) learn it at the training and then regurgitate to consumers who blindly follow their advice.

>And really what do most lawyers, accountants and building inspectors know about property investing? Most know nothing because they don't own any property and those that do usually own one or two (or perhaps even three) properties.

>Being qualified doesn’t mean your good, or you have a better 'understanding', all it means is you've taken a course and done enough to qualifiy.

Rgds.
Lucifer_au

> I consult professionals such as solicitors and accountants and financial
> planners when I need their advice.
same here, solicitors and accountants, but I don't consult financial planners, for reasons already discussed.

> If I want a property, I go to real estate agents.

same! (um, duh....)
I also go to find private sales. Either through word of mouth or through advertisements.

>I certainly don't depend on
> people who call themselves "bird dogs" unless they hold a qualification to do
> what they do.

Thank God for small mercies.

> I also do a LOT of research and learn things I am interested in or contact the
> source and discuss the ins and outs with them before I consider what position
> I may want to take.

same, same, same, same, and same

> Regarding making my decision, I do that myself.

same

>All I seek from professionals
> is information.

same

>If I make a mistake based on the information I collected, I
> cannot blame anyone else.

same

> The 'sheep' don't usually consult any professionals. They do things that they
> read in a paper or on a property website or a friend or unqualified person
> told them.

Ahm, well this is your story, so the answer is 'and So Be It!'

So therefore, by your paradigm, as long as you don't do anything you read on a website or that an unqualified person tells you, you'll be OK, and able to safely distinguish yourself as a savvy and sophisticated investor who has happily found a paradigm in which he can differentiate himself as vastly superior to the despised 'sheep'.

So what are you doing reading this then?

NZ Investor and Bird Dog

Lucifer, I agree with everything you say.

I have actually also used a bird dog myself in Australia to purchase a property in an area I was unfamiliar with. He wasn't "qualified" then,
except by being a millionaire property investor who specialised in a particular area I wanted to buy in. (but that's not a 'qualification' by whasshisface's definition of course) - and besides it's unseemly to talk about how much money we have other than behind closed doors with other investors - certainly not online!

but anyway, he is these days a 'qualified' financial planner. I think it took him 2 weeks and 10k to get the qualification. He did it (I believe) because there are quite a few people out there that are impressed by qualifications and it puts their fears to rest. *whispers and points to the corner*

However I have to say that if I used this guy qualified or not, I would be sussing the local market knowledge, not the qualification.

He didn't actually broker a deal as such for me, I put a contract on the property directly, but basically I leveraged off his inside knowledge of what was happening in the area, tradespeople at a discount who work on his portfolio, his vast amount of research which I went to see when we met up (and spent an entire day together) - not to mention an indepth knowledge of rents, costs, prices in the actual street and in the actual block I was buying in.

Priceless.
As a bird dog myself that is the sort of thing I am trying to offer to my clients. I keep a constant look out for any articles on any of the towns and look out for things like 'factory set to expand, opens in 2007 with 500 new jobs' and I clip that out, and (for example) go check it out and (to cut a long story short) then immediately go try and find some CF+ve deals there, and include the new announcement with the deal, that kind of thing.

I can't see that any qualification would make any difference, it's just putting two and two together and providing documentary evidence of the two and the two. The decision is still the investor's of course.

Anyway, how did I get here, and what's my name again? And what were we discussing?

NZ Investor and Bird Dog

Well so far, the NZ topic area is up and running well. For those new to NZ investing, ask questions here for certain, have a good look at the answers and for sure, understand that different people have differing personal circumstances, so what's right for one person may differ for another. If you are unsure about what someone posts, PM them, or post a query back politely on the forum so that others who might also be unsure can view the response.

Also, don't forget that there have been numerous posts in General Property before NZ Property came on line - you can search for hours in there and find all sorts of information of all sorts of quality!!

Happy learning and investing!!!

CastleDreamer
NZ Investor and Property Spotter

Like IP? I love it.

Hi all,

Professional to me means someone who is getting paid for what they do and that they have credentials in the area they are getting paid for.

I am involved in the medical profession and I can garatee you that I would not just go to anyone who has got a medical degrre if it was my health on the line. I would go to the best in that particular area wether it be a neuro surgeon or a hand surgeon or why not a reumatologist compared to a neurologist. My point being, don't be blinded by a degree that does not necessarily guarantee their expertice in the area you need advice.

REMEMBER WHAT ROBERT KIYOSAKI SAIS "THE WORST ADVICE OFTEN COMES FOR FREE AND THE CHEAP ONES.....well go figure.

If your uncle has a lot of experience in the area you seek advice so be it, otherwise I would ensure that I got the best advice around regardless.

Also remember...NO ONE ever get rich by being a cheap

Best of luck with everything

jb

"I am involved in the medical profession and I can garatee you that I would not just go to anyone who has got a medical degrre if it was my health on the line. I would go to the best in that particular area wether it be a neuro surgeon or a hand surgeon or why not a reumatologist compared to a neurologist. My point being, don't be blinded by a degree that does not necessarily guarantee their expertice in the area you need advice"

I absolutely agree with Jonus. I have had mistakes made by both my solicitor and accountant over searches and tax returns. Even though they are both qualified & experienced in their fields their knowledge is broad and my needs are specific. It doesn't hurt to consult the hard core resources yourself before signing off to accept their work. At the end of the day a qualification meand you know where to find the answers, it doesn't necessarily mean you made the effort to find them in every instance.

Sorry to go off topic, but does anyone know of a good resource to locate data on upper quartile, median and lower quartile price ranges for NZ properties?

thanks

some bird dogs better than others!

I have offered a few thousand dollars to a local in an area that interests me, if he brought me something that I landed up buying. Since he lives in the area, he is "undercover", so to speak, and I have been getting apprised of opportunities that are not on the public market. This is working for me, in conjunction with in depth study of the comps for the area, particularly the closed sales in past 6 months. Most realtors just present you with what is in the MLS, which is now publically accessible (in the States)

feeling after getting presented an early look
feeling after realizing seller is priced too high, and won't budge

Hi,

While we're on the topic of bird-dogging, I have a few questions about them. I'm relatively new to property investing and am discussing with a bird-dog a couple of properties they have introduced me to.

- I know there isn't any "real standard", but what is a reasonable fee?

- I'm doing by own checks on the properties, and am happy with what I've found so far. I am not aware of any of their "qualifications", but if I do my own checks (checking the numbers I've been given, getting the lease agreements, building inspections, council rates searches) are there any other things I should be wary of?

- I have been told that once I sign up with the bird-dog for the property that the sale contract is automatically unconditional. I'm a bit unsure because I haven't seen the contract of sale and I'm not sure of any encumbrances, etc. Is this common practice, and how do I best protect myself?

Thanks.

Hi,

I'm new to looking at NZ property. Can anyone tell me any good professionals in Dunedin or Christchurch they have used?

- property managers
- mortgage brokers
- settlement agents
- building inspectors
- pest inspectors

Thanks.

Hi there

"I know there isn't any "real standard", but what is a reasonable fee?"

At NZ Bird Dogs we charge $2500 for a fee for the cheapies (say up to $150k.) For deals i.e. 250k we might charge $3000-3500 (depends on the deal.) If there is say 45k equity in it then we might charge $3500 for a 255k purchase rather than $3000k. For the million dollar deals we charge 10-20k, again depending on the deal. One such deal we had was 17 percent under valuation so that was a 20k deal. Basically we just made the client 150k even after our fee was taken out, so we always try to find deals that are worth more to the client than the fee!

Other bird dogs - House Hunters charge about 2k to join the list (our list is free) and then 6k for a deal. This is for Australian deals with stamp duty so you would be up for 10-20k to buy the average deal. Richmastery charge about 1-2k more than us for the same sort of deal.

>I'm doing by own checks on the properties, and am happy with what I've found so far. I am not aware of any of their "qualifications">

we don't have qualifications because you don't need any qualifications to be an investor, and all our spotters are investors themselves, 5 of our spotters are full time investors. I would never be a full-time investor as such, because I see property as a way to make 'free money' passively without having to slave away at it like a full time job, in order to fund and experience life and fulfil one's dreams, whatever they are! I am making TV shows and doing deals with networks these days and that's all thanks to property. So if I am passionate about it, it's because it works. Sure, I renovated with my own hands when I was starting out but these days I just make calls and 'have it done'. Frees my time for more important stuff like quality of life!

" but if I do my own checks (checking the numbers I've been given, getting the lease agreements, building inspections, council rates searches) are there any other things I should be wary of?"

Basically we have done so many deals now (350, 400, lost count!) and helped so many clients through the whole process, plus monitored all the deals for years (just because we keep in touch with our clients) that we have a handle on all aspects of the process, so we basically help the client so they don't 'forget' anything to do with the deal.

"I have been told that once I sign up with the bird-dog for the property that the sale contract is automatically unconditional. "

I am sure that some bird dogs do this (shonky!) but we don't. We sign up conditional contracts and assign them to the client with say 10 days to do until unconditional (confirmation.) In that time we are doing builder's reports, valuations, getting all the bits to the client's lender, and then re-negotiating the deal if required. Any problems with the deal miraculously come good when the vendor agrees to fix them by settlement or offer a discount off the purchase price to compensate! We also line up a rental manager who we recommend in each area to take on the property. As you know people move around so our favourite rental manager in any town does change from time to time.

>I'm a bit unsure because I haven't seen the contract of sale and I'm not sure of any encumbranc es, etc. Is this common practice, and how do I best protect myself?>

We provide the contract of sale (this is what we assign the client.) with the deal. As far as understanding the contract, you would use your own solicitor for this. We have a solicitor who we think is the best in NZ and the best priced as well, we use him and a lot of clients do, but you can use whoever you like. The solicitor will do the title searches but this is usually done after the due diligence, towards the end so as not to incur fees. i have never done a deal where there were any title encumbrances so it didn't proceed. We used to order the title from QV for a few bucks but we stopped bothering because the client couldn't use the 'online version' anyway, the lawyer has to do the 'proper' one from the Land Transfer Office. Basically it has never been a problem.

if you email me at barb at vocalbureau dot com I can email you the information sheet which is 15 pages long and answers all your questions and more.

>professionals in Dunedin or Christchurch they have used?

I certainly know all of the people below that you requested or rather our spotters do, however we provide this information to clients and through the deals (i.e. we use this ourselves) as it has value to us. We work with several agents because we do a lot of repeat business. They know our deals go through and so to pass you the name of our real estate agent would either be commercially imprudent for us to do, and also no use because a new person doesn't have the relationship with the agent. however as our client you get the leverage of all 8 spotters' combined on the ground real estate relationships with their favourite trusted agents in different locations all over NZ.

Broker - we use a really good one in Auckland and I only give this contact out to clients so you would have to join the list. To buy a property in Christchurch for instance you don't need your broker to be in Christchurch.

>- property managers
we choose these depending on the deal. A Brighton beach renovated ex state house might be managed by a different agent to a near - new furnished townhouse across the road from the hospital. It is not one-size -fits- all with property managers and our clients benefit from our town-specific knowledge there because our spotters do/oversee/keep tabs on so many rental properties.

>- settlement agents
You mean a lawyer. Yes there are two or three lawyers in NZ that I like to work with (prompt, not expensive, great communicators, smart) and many that overcharge, are hopeless/slack. The ones we recommend are the former and when clients decide to use 'their own solicitor' we often get the latter. This is not an exaggeration! However this is where we come in and help bridge the gap between the lawyer and the client. We remind/hassle the lawyer if need be, help write letters of negotiation to save the client fees, etc etc!

>- building inspectors

with our deals, we always provide a name or names of who we think is best. I.e. $350 you get a full written report with 150 pictures, or for $150 you get a verbal and an invoice! (the client can choose!)
>- pest inspectors

In NZ as pests are not like they are in NZ it is not necessary to get a separate one, in fact not at all common, it's all done as part of the builder's report.

cheers -
Barb

Feel free to text me your email address to be added to the list. Our website is in between changing to nzbirddogs.com (not up yet but it will be) as we are newly incorporated in NZ now, so just email me as above if you want more info and I can email it to you for now.
cheers -
Barb AKA Minimogul

NZ Bird Dogs - Great deals in NZ, Integrity Guaranteed!
barb at vocalbureau dot com
0411383117